Mvnl
Staff member
Unless Ani came there with an agenda it would be very very lazy writing, yes.
13 Reasons Why
- Thread starter Dangerous Maknae
- Start date
Unless Ani came there with an agenda it would be very very lazy writing, yes.
I have yet to start episode 3 so my head may be firmly planted in my ass right now and I hope that’s the case!!
I literally feel like Ani's dialogue is just saying "But ____ wasn't the only one with a secret about that night" over and over again.
I will say though that episode 8 and 9 have been big improvements and things are getting slightly more interesting and I'm looking forward to the finale.
I will say though that episode 8 and 9 have been big improvements and things are getting slightly more interesting and I'm looking forward to the finale.
Solenciennes
Staff member
Finished it tonight. Lots of thoughts that will be with me for days before I feel ready to splurge in here but was able to click through all the spoiler tagged posts and I’m a little surprised I guess, that I disagree with everyone else’s views on the Bryce “redemption” storyline?
But anyway... that’s just one small aspect of a multifaceted season that I want to think about and write essays about in the next few days, I’ll be back.
My main feeling is that they were fleshing out that redemption vs punishment theme in a way that allowed Hannah to still be part of the story without literally inventing new ways to have Katherine Langford appear on set. I don’t think the show settled on Bryce as a redeemed character at any point, they just showed him trying to make amends for things that cannot be amended; being rejected at every turn by those who deserved the opportunity to reject his apologies and having to face the visceral disgust from his parents and former friends, new classmates and ex girlfriend. To me, the show was demonstrating that justice may not be served in court but consequences are felt in other ways. I thought that was really well done. Yes, he died, but nobody was mourning him
except his mother. Other people were careful not to be dancing on his grave because it was a murder investigation but I don’t see how his character was martyred just because he died. His death didn’t symbolise anything that redeemed his character or actions, the only grey area in that ball park was Bryce’s relationship with his mother who’s ultimately just experiencing the same primal grief as Hannah’s mother, and it was a nice touch to have that scene of them together.
except his mother. Other people were careful not to be dancing on his grave because it was a murder investigation but I don’t see how his character was martyred just because he died. His death didn’t symbolise anything that redeemed his character or actions, the only grey area in that ball park was Bryce’s relationship with his mother who’s ultimately just experiencing the same primal grief as Hannah’s mother, and it was a nice touch to have that scene of them together.
But anyway... that’s just one small aspect of a multifaceted season that I want to think about and write essays about in the next few days, I’ll be back.
Solenciennes
Staff member
Storylines that I thought were done impeccably:
Storylines that pushed the envelope but I felt were a force for good, complex viewing and well done overall:
Get in the bin:
Tyler opening up about his sexual assault - I cried when he told Clay, I cried when he told Jess and I cried when he stood up in the assembly.
Becca getting an abortion - it's a shame she wasn't used more but what little screen time she got was acted brilliantly and used effectively. The abortion clinic scenes were overwhelming and clinical and the kind of empty, loaded stare she gave Bryce at the game pre-riot before telling him what had happened were better than any words that came out of Ani's mouth.
Mrs Walker navigating her grief - as viewers we can't really feel sorry for Bryce, but we can feel sorry for the mother who's been left to pick up the pieces of the mess he's made, and then especially sorry for her when she has to then make sense of him being murdered on top of the terrible things he did in his lifetime. The moments where they had a paint fight and she helped him do yoga, and when he read her the letter he wrote to himself from what he imagined was her perspective... really just added layers and layers of emotions to what could have been a fairly one dimensional "my son is a monster!!!" bit part.
The return of Mrs Baker - I wasn't expecting her to appear. The story didn't need Mrs Baker, but it was made all the better for her eleventh hour arrival to the plot as a final potential suspect. Her scenes with Jess, Clay, Bryce, Mrs Walker and Tony were all high drama.
Becca getting an abortion - it's a shame she wasn't used more but what little screen time she got was acted brilliantly and used effectively. The abortion clinic scenes were overwhelming and clinical and the kind of empty, loaded stare she gave Bryce at the game pre-riot before telling him what had happened were better than any words that came out of Ani's mouth.
Mrs Walker navigating her grief - as viewers we can't really feel sorry for Bryce, but we can feel sorry for the mother who's been left to pick up the pieces of the mess he's made, and then especially sorry for her when she has to then make sense of him being murdered on top of the terrible things he did in his lifetime. The moments where they had a paint fight and she helped him do yoga, and when he read her the letter he wrote to himself from what he imagined was her perspective... really just added layers and layers of emotions to what could have been a fairly one dimensional "my son is a monster!!!" bit part.
The return of Mrs Baker - I wasn't expecting her to appear. The story didn't need Mrs Baker, but it was made all the better for her eleventh hour arrival to the plot as a final potential suspect. Her scenes with Jess, Clay, Bryce, Mrs Walker and Tony were all high drama.
Storylines that pushed the envelope but I felt were a force for good, complex viewing and well done overall:
Bryce's attempts to redeem himself - making us watch the constant churn between brattish temper tantrums and genuine sorrow for everything he had done and not knowing where he could possibly go were hard to watch but I think a vital lesson for any young man watching the show. Taking what you want, sexually, has consequences. Money and lies in court don't change the way people treat you when they know what you did. He lost his friends, girlfriend, his father, his own mother couldn't stand to be around him much of the time and all he could do was try and do and be better. In life, other people will judge us by our highs and our lows; but as individuals our outlook and understanding of ourselves is the most definitive relationship we will have. Privileged, pre-tapes Bryce was able to avoid confronting his relationship with himself. When nobody wanted anything to do with his material wealth and its trappings, he had nothing but loneliness and self-reflection to keep himself occupied and that's what we had to witness this season, the unpacking of Bryce Walker the individual.
Jess reclaiming sex - Ani making herself out to be some sex/lifestyle guru when she can't even commit to telling anyone a consistent self truth was laughable, but Jess finding some actual joy in exploring her body and then gravitating back to Justin was a relief. Alex represented the reactive part of her experience, where she had to detach herself from her previous circumstances and quickly build a support system somewhere else. Alex was never right for her, and Alex's rage at that uncomfortable truth was an interesting parallel to the entitled rape culture that Bryce represented - though he was respectful of her body and needs and was doing his best to please her, Alex behaved like men that complain about being friend zoned when Jess was ready to be emotionally honest. Getting back together with Justin was a proactive choice, one that she wanted to make; and the emotional reconnection between them overcoming his role in her rape and his relapses into addiction were made believable by the strength of the actors.
Jess reclaiming sex - Ani making herself out to be some sex/lifestyle guru when she can't even commit to telling anyone a consistent self truth was laughable, but Jess finding some actual joy in exploring her body and then gravitating back to Justin was a relief. Alex represented the reactive part of her experience, where she had to detach herself from her previous circumstances and quickly build a support system somewhere else. Alex was never right for her, and Alex's rage at that uncomfortable truth was an interesting parallel to the entitled rape culture that Bryce represented - though he was respectful of her body and needs and was doing his best to please her, Alex behaved like men that complain about being friend zoned when Jess was ready to be emotionally honest. Getting back together with Justin was a proactive choice, one that she wanted to make; and the emotional reconnection between them overcoming his role in her rape and his relapses into addiction were made believable by the strength of the actors.
Get in the bin:
Ani - I was willing to give the actress the benefit of the doubt in the first few episodes because the insertion of a brand new character into the thick of the drama, serving as the narrator, was always going to be a jarring plot point. Having her be hyper-nosy, hyper-sleuthing and hyper-unreliable was also always going to be a lot to take in as a viewer... but between the plummy generic British accent and needless swivel-chairing of suspecting absolutely everyone, to their faces, while giving us zero reason to accept Ani's innocence as a given... meh. Perhaps if she's given better material in Season 4 she can show us what she's capable of, but I think she was an unsuccessful addition to a stellar cast.
Tony - I just don't feel the god DAMN it wannabe disapproving Dad persona. It's patronising, and it made it hard to get as invested in the deportation of his family (not helped by the much better portrayal in Orange Is The New Black's final season as a recent comparison) - none of his scenes made me feel much.
Montgomery's gay struggle - the idea is good on paper but the way they executed it wasn't given anywhere near enough time to settle in before they'd Bury Your Gays'd him and framed him for murder for being a bad seed. That said, the way they ended the final episode implied that Season 4's strand could be to expose Ani et al for their conspiracy which might correct that bad taste a bit... but yeah, to me it just felt like Monty in Season 2 was a beta character poised to take on the chief antagonist role from Bryce; and then spent much of this season still being a beta character but suddenly given a queer coat of paint for two scenes, a brief macho-dad-rejects-son scene and then killed off-camera and exploited in death to give everyone a happy ending. Not quite as slick as it was gearing up to have been.
The reveal of who killed Bryce - the run of episodes right up to the moment where Zack tells Alex he's responsible went at breakneck, breathtaking speed and then the wheels came off in the final stretch. Zack having his leg broken in the riot but being in a brace and able to drive to the pier in the same time-frame as Bryce leaving the game and getting back to school? Jess being home and Justin inexplicably not being with her when she'd been molested on the field? Montgomery wanting to go after Bryce but conveniently overcoming his self loathing to go have a gay moment of whatever? Alex feeling guilty for walking away from Bryce, going back to help him and then shoving Bryce into the water for... pulling a face at Jess for being all for walking away and leaving him to die? They could, and should, have dropped the storyline where Alex and Bryce are chummy for a bit, and found a way to make them further at odds with each other so that Alex's split second decision to shove him into the harbour and then be clinically fine with being a murderer (bouts of anger in the boxing ring aside, obviously) make some sense. Like, have them be at odds mid-way through the season and then Alex have a "whatever dude, you're awful" apathetic last word against him before he accompanies Jess to the pier so that nonchalantly choosing to take his life doesn't seem so totally jarring. And why, when the police were militantly trying to frame Clay for murdering Bryce, were they totally fine with Zack 'only' beating him to within an inch of his life and happily going 'nah you're good'?!
Tony - I just don't feel the god DAMN it wannabe disapproving Dad persona. It's patronising, and it made it hard to get as invested in the deportation of his family (not helped by the much better portrayal in Orange Is The New Black's final season as a recent comparison) - none of his scenes made me feel much.
Montgomery's gay struggle - the idea is good on paper but the way they executed it wasn't given anywhere near enough time to settle in before they'd Bury Your Gays'd him and framed him for murder for being a bad seed. That said, the way they ended the final episode implied that Season 4's strand could be to expose Ani et al for their conspiracy which might correct that bad taste a bit... but yeah, to me it just felt like Monty in Season 2 was a beta character poised to take on the chief antagonist role from Bryce; and then spent much of this season still being a beta character but suddenly given a queer coat of paint for two scenes, a brief macho-dad-rejects-son scene and then killed off-camera and exploited in death to give everyone a happy ending. Not quite as slick as it was gearing up to have been.
The reveal of who killed Bryce - the run of episodes right up to the moment where Zack tells Alex he's responsible went at breakneck, breathtaking speed and then the wheels came off in the final stretch. Zack having his leg broken in the riot but being in a brace and able to drive to the pier in the same time-frame as Bryce leaving the game and getting back to school? Jess being home and Justin inexplicably not being with her when she'd been molested on the field? Montgomery wanting to go after Bryce but conveniently overcoming his self loathing to go have a gay moment of whatever? Alex feeling guilty for walking away from Bryce, going back to help him and then shoving Bryce into the water for... pulling a face at Jess for being all for walking away and leaving him to die? They could, and should, have dropped the storyline where Alex and Bryce are chummy for a bit, and found a way to make them further at odds with each other so that Alex's split second decision to shove him into the harbour and then be clinically fine with being a murderer (bouts of anger in the boxing ring aside, obviously) make some sense. Like, have them be at odds mid-way through the season and then Alex have a "whatever dude, you're awful" apathetic last word against him before he accompanies Jess to the pier so that nonchalantly choosing to take his life doesn't seem so totally jarring. And why, when the police were militantly trying to frame Clay for murdering Bryce, were they totally fine with Zack 'only' beating him to within an inch of his life and happily going 'nah you're good'?!
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he / him
I'm sorry but I just can't get behind the Bryce storyline being done well at all, not for how it made me feel all over again. Not for the amount of time they focused on him trying to make reparations in place of exploring Monty's sexuality, Tyler's assault, Jess' contradictions with the group.
They really did play it as though he'd accidentally raped several women, and he deserved repentance because he acknowledged that and had suffered. He even openly admits to raping several women, he physically assaults Ani when she goes to leave, he breaks Zac's knee, he's shown that he hasn't changed - and they do not follow that up. They kill him, and don't give enough time to question it or give time to characters willing to question it.
Mrs Baker returning to stick the knife back into the storyline? I think they thought it would be enough, it absolutely was not and I found the end result frankly insulting. If they wanted to examine his humanity, they really ought to have balanced the scale and had a wider exploration of Jess and how she would have rather him face justice than be killed.
They really did play it as though he'd accidentally raped several women, and he deserved repentance because he acknowledged that and had suffered. He even openly admits to raping several women, he physically assaults Ani when she goes to leave, he breaks Zac's knee, he's shown that he hasn't changed - and they do not follow that up. They kill him, and don't give enough time to question it or give time to characters willing to question it.
Mrs Baker returning to stick the knife back into the storyline? I think they thought it would be enough, it absolutely was not and I found the end result frankly insulting. If they wanted to examine his humanity, they really ought to have balanced the scale and had a wider exploration of Jess and how she would have rather him face justice than be killed.
Solenciennes
Staff member
Not one character gave him that forgiveness though? So I thought it was successful storytelling - we get to see Bryce trying to do all the things that a person might do to be forgiven for something bad they have done; and none of it being enough to earn forgiveness from anyone because the damage is too extensive and wide reaching. It’s uncomfortable to be given a sympathetic insight, but worth it because no sympathy is given to him by any other character. He extends as many peace offerings as possible but he continues to make people livid and/or uncomfortable. His attempts to be heroic are not thanked by anyone because he cannot undo a lifetime of antagonism.
D
Deleted member 11565
So Season 4 will basically be How To Get Away With Murder without Annalise Keating? Ok.
I’m about halfway through season 3 and I’m liking this idea more and more.
This has a 23 on Metacritic. Ouch.
He/him
I thought there would be a twist with Ani at the end. Her position in the group was bizarre and didn’t make sense. I thought she was going to be the killer, or she’d turn out to be a cop or something.
I still don’t understand the situation with Alex and his father. So he knew all along? And what were those pills/drugs found in his drawer by his parents?
Thought Tyler was brilliant this season. Some of the best acting across all 3 seasons, especially his confession with Clay.
Also thought they were going to do an arc with Monty sexually assaulting Bryce, viewer manipulation to get people to feel sorry for Bryce. Glad that didn’t happen.
I still don’t understand the situation with Alex and his father. So he knew all along? And what were those pills/drugs found in his drawer by his parents?
Thought Tyler was brilliant this season. Some of the best acting across all 3 seasons, especially his confession with Clay.
Also thought they were going to do an arc with Monty sexually assaulting Bryce, viewer manipulation to get people to feel sorry for Bryce. Glad that didn’t happen.
The way Ani - a girl in high school who only just became friends with these characters a few months ago - speaks to a CHIEF DETECTIVE is infuriating and so unrealistic. She just had to know better than him for every single thing. It was almost insulting at times. She ran circles round him, made him look completely incompetent and her endless 'But did he?, "That's not all that happened...", "He wasn't the only one who....", bullshit was driving me insane.
I hope Season 4 focuses on Monty's backstory and Winston tries to get 'justice' for his murder and being framed because these awful characters need to face some fucking consequences for their actions.
I hope Season 4 focuses on Monty's backstory and Winston tries to get 'justice' for his murder and being framed because these awful characters need to face some fucking consequences for their actions.