Demi Lovato - Dancing With the Devil: The Art of Starting Over | Page 177 | The Popjustice Forum

Demi Lovato - Dancing With the Devil: The Art of Starting Over

Discussion in 'Pop & Justice' started by jamesmax, May 24, 2018.

  1. Oh I love the Melon Cake music video! They look so good, and it's so fun and colorful.
    Honestly, the album was such a relief after most of the 2020 singles. So much better than I was expecting, and I'm really happy they came through. I think it cemented that I'll always be here for them musically speaking and it's just...everything else that I'll have a problem with sometimes dddd.
    Espeon, Txetxu and blaze_dave like this.
  2. There's also something uncomfortable about such a large kind of over-analyzing and scrutinizing over the way someone who was AFAB speaks of their sexuality, gender identity, trauma and experiences with sexualized violence as interconnecting and something they have to continue working through and digging through and processing and coming to terms with. The lack of understanding feels like a lack of empathy.

    Demi does a lot that can be annoying - the opening of the Melon Cake video being credit card promo at a bakery of sweets dubbed Scooter's Cookies is so..... !?!? jgkbkgfnjbkgf - but their journey with their sexuality and gender is valid and important.
  3. Why do I feel like everytime I open this thread Demi has a new identity ddd.

    I mean they have every right to explore their gender identity but I can also see why people are getting confused.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2021
    ateensfan likes this.
  4. Why did you feel the need to share this? That's a better question.
  5. eccentricsimply

    eccentricsimply Staff Member

    How about we don't question people's identities? I don't see how others being confused is grounds for comments about the way Demi perceives themself.

    Think about the fact that Demi might not see how comfortable some of you are with discussing whether what they are feeling is valid or not, but other people who browse this forum and feel the same way Demi does will see it and you're only perpetuating even further stigma towards non-binary gender identities.

    Anyway, needless to say, let's cut this talk before warnings start being given.
  6. I want to chime in because these posts made me uncomfortable and I think any trans and non-binary people of this place should have the opportunity to add something to the discussion even if it got understandably cut off by mods. This thread has had a weird energy for a while, and I'm not only talking about the misgendering that happens a lot in and out this place, but it has become clear to me that some people have let their dislike of Demi influence their attitude towards anything, good and bad, they'll do and say from now on. Sure, you can have reasonable feelings for your dislike, and all the controversies or tone-deaf mess Demi got themselves into are valid reasons.

    With that being said, whether you like them or not, they're now part of mainstream trans representation, and with the visibility that they have, it means they're going to face harsher criticisms than ever as they navigate a society in which trans acceptance is still in its baby stage and non-binary acceptance is barely existent so far. People should be careful in how they approach Demi's statements as they require a minimal understanding of what it's like to explore gender inside and outside of the binary commonly placed upon it, how it can be envisioned as a spectrum, as well as the importance of letting people apply labels to their gender identity as it's up to no one but themselves to do so. Not everyone places an importance on labels, but they can help people find peace and relieve the discomfort they've been feeling as they navigate their unique journey.

    I can get how someone unfamiliar with non-binary gender identities may feel confused by Demi's words, but trans and non-binary are both umbrella terms. You will come across people who identify as one or the other, some who identify as both, some who also use other terms that fall outside the binary notion of gender, as well as some who are unsure about it all and... it's all valid. I like to see people as works in progress, growing and changing and evolving and learning more about themselves. There's no shame in someone adopting a new label if they feel it fits them better, nor in setting aside an old label that described them well but don't feel comfortable using anymore. That's somewhat similar to Demi's words in the quoted portion of the article, and I agree with them. Even within trans and trans adjacent spaces, there's already an amount of gatekeeping that occurs and that I unfortunately have witnessed or even fallen victim to, so I would be grateful if cis people refrained from doing the same.

    I want to add that this is my own opinion informed by my personal experience as a trans woman whose journey with my gender identity is still ongoing, and so I can't speak for every trans and non-binary people. Moreover, I'm not trying to shut down all dissenting views or saying that Demi is above criticism in every situation.

    However, if your go-to response here is to place any judgements (based on ignorance) on Demi's gender identity and their approach to it instead of understanding where they're coming from, then in the bigger scheme of things you're going to make it harder for people who are questioning their own to get out of the closet. Regardless of your intention, the harmful posts that have been made earlier are all part of a bigger anti trans and non-binary stance that should be criticized instead of being spread unchallenged. These views can make people struggle with feeling valid and can ultimately hold them back from accepting themselves. Please have some self-awareness of your words' impacts.

    Speaking of exhausting, I'm too tired to go over all of these takes point by point, so let me drop a few videos by a couple of non-binary YouTubers that may prove to be useful.

    If you do take the time to watch them, you may notice they don't necessarily 100% overlap opinion wise. My experience navigating trans and non-binary spaces is that there's not one-size-fits-all definition for any of these labels as it's highly dependent on each individual's personal internal feelings and lived experiences. I think this explains in part people's confusion, as they expect an explanation that's silmutaneously clear, concise, and that includes everyone's experiences, or they expect to witness a linear journey that goes from point A to B with nothing inbetween. But that's an unrealistic expectation and gender is such a complex concept that it just doesn't work that way for most.

    I hope these videos will at least help someone gain a wider understanding of non-binary gender identities. And even if it doesn't, one thing to take into consideration is you don't have to understand an individual's gender identity to have empathy and compassion for them.
  7. I've just read this and... I'm honestly really sorry if my comment made you feel uncomfortable. Sometimes I just don't think before I speak and I think in this instance, as someone who could be more educated on the topic of non-binary identities, I should have just kept my mouth shut, it really wasn't needed.

    I know I can't take it back, but I can go and educate myself by learning more about the topic before commenting. In the future I will absolutely tread carefully when discussing such a sensitive/personal topic that so many people deal with.
    Espeon, StratusJM, Atletico and 6 others like this.
  8. Coming from a nonbinary person, let me say this simply: Gender is fucking confusing. The labels for it all are limited, because humans are more complex than language, so sometimes there is shifting labels for which we call ourselves when better words to describe us come about. There could be a gender for every individual person on the planet. But words can't work like that. So we need more general labels to find people like us. And over the years, sometimes new labels come about, new communities of people find each other. It's an evolution centered around finding belonging with ourselves and with people like us. That's really it.

    So Demi might change how they identify in the future, and that's okay. We're all just trying to figure out how to present ourselves to the world. Not just with the way we look, but also the words we feel work for us. And as we grow, sometimes those words change because words can be so limiting to how individual we all are as people.
  9. What I hear Demi saying is that they're still exploring their identity and they know that identity is a very complex concept that's ever evolving. I think the wording is a little shaky and can be misinterpreted but it's hard to come forward and speak on these topics so I think it's something you definitely have to have an open mind towards and assume the best when it comes to them speaking about their own journey with identity. Maybe they're too uncomfortable to identify as trans at this particular time, either way in the end it's not my identity and I feel like that means I have a certain capacity to participate in the discussion of their truth- and I think at this point in time any sort of positive or forward thinking statements about identity should be welcomed.
  10. eccentricsimply

    eccentricsimply Staff Member

    Trans and/or non-binary members are, of course, free to comment on it. I would just like for people who are either not educated enough on the topic or who carry obvious biases to refrain from doing so as your posts can affect the well-being of trans and/or non-binary members of the forum.
  11. Sorry to change topic, but hopefully the album comes out on vinyl here in the UK! I've preordered the Urban Outfitters orange one just in case. Wonder if the pressing was always planned but didn't want to delay the album due to the backlog at the pressing plants?
    blaze_dave and Music Is Death like this.
  12. Same I just pre ordered from Urban Outfitters as it says it was selling fast and didn't want to miss out on it.
  13. So I've been on a bit of a Demi kick lately and I just had to post some appreciation for this unreleased gem:

    I love the lyrics and production so much. It's such a great song, should have been on the album over the soundtrack songs, as much as I like them.

    Honestly though, as much as I love Tell Me You Love Me, Here We Go Again really was their best album in terms of material, vocals and visuals until Dancing With The Devil came along, and the former still beats it in terms of visuals. Not only does it have two of their best songs as singles, but the album tracks! Look at the material!

    Their second best work for sure.
    Crisp X likes this.
  14. Here We Go Again is a stunning album. I got the Urban Outfitters vinyl earlier this year and I still play it regularly. It's just such a rush. I've said it before but I'd love another pop-punk album from them.
  15. Music video for their collaboration with G-Eazy:

  16. The alien thing is....interesting

    On another note, I really loved this part of their conversation:
    heavymetalGAGA likes this.
  17. Tonight Show performance:

  18. Recently surfaced outtake from the Tell Me You Love Me era:

    MusicLover1994 likes this.
  19. Ooh, a nice little bop!
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