Discussion of Race/Racism/Culture on PJ | The Popjustice Forum

Discussion of Race/Racism/Culture on PJ

Discussion in 'Forum business' started by jinzo, Aug 8, 2013.

  1. I'm normally not one to have a moan about the rules on here (if it was up to me, there'd be less rules), but here's one I strongly advocate- can we please have a blanket ban on the discussion of race/culture in music threads?

    http://www.popjustice.com/forum/thr...(1st-Single)?p=2714030&viewfull=1#post2714030

    Just as an example. Pages and pages and pages of off-topic waffle. Pages and pages of people showing off thinking how clever they are. It's got absolutely nothing to do with the thread at hand, and for someone who doesn't have some kind of vested interest in the subject, it's an annoyance to have to trail through. And it seems like most people are unable to do it with any kind of poise or grace; they end up chucking toys out the pram somewhere down the line.

    Now before you jump to the conclusion I'm some uneducated luddite, I've got a first-class degree in Politics. I'd be more than happy to debate someone on a politically-charged topic, but I'd do it elsewhere.

    When I go to a P&J thread, I don't want to have to sit through a group of people with Social Science degrees chucking their theories at one another. Any chance you can relegate this kind of discussion to its own dedicated thread, preferably somewhere far, far away from the eyes of the 99% of us that are bored off our arses having to skip through it all?

    Yours sincerely,

    Jin
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  2. URGH.

    For crying out loud, can we stop limiting everything on here? People should stick to the rules (and common courtesy!) regardless of the topic at hand. If we go down this route we'll ban every major pop artist too.
     
  3. I for one would like to continue to discuss racism and - wait for it - cultural appropriation in Lady Gaga threads.
     
  4. Not really.
     
  5. I agree with jinzo.
    I've only been here for about a year and this is the fourth time I've seen this exact same discussion happen (the other three examples being Lana, No Doubt and Selena Gomez). I honestly have no idea why people think this is something that needs to be discussed in a thread that is supposed to be about an artist's new single or album.
    Meanwhile, other users get a warning for not capitalizing letters.
     
  6. It'd be fine if 75% of the posts didn't contain some variant of "BUT THIS IS TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOUR LITTLE MIND TO UNDERSTAND". It's petty, and it's not even being argued well, on either side.
     
  7. SockMonkey

    SockMonkey Guest

    The thing is, it's not really off topic, is it? If someone as massive as Lady Gaga puts out a song about a burqa as something sexy, then it's a red rag to a bull(shitter). The discussions spiral off into issues surrounding the original discussion - it stemmed from something very on-topic.

    I agree that a lot of it is painful to read and the "how many paragraphs can I stretch this to" and "quick flick through a sociology textbook to find some good words" one-upmanship is very tiring, but I don't think it's right to entirely stifle discussion which isn't wholly irrelevant.

    And, sorry to throw this back at you jinzo, but if someone comes along wanting to read about Cher Lloyd's music, do they really want to be faced with three pages of bollocks, in-jokes and QUEEN SLAYING YOUR FAVES IN NIGERIA nonsense? Probably not. It's likely "an annoyance to have to trail through", really.
     
  8. A little while ago there were a few pages discussing whether Lady Gaga's boobs are too floppy or not. These topics always veer way off the original subject matter, but I don't think it exclusively happens with discussion of racism. Obviously with contentious issues people are going to have extreme views both ways and some people are just going to do some mental gymnastics to turn 'social justice' into a exercise in building up their 'fave' and knocking down everyone else for the same stuff, but at the end of the day it can actually be relevant to discussion. The topics always come back to the original topic at hand in the end. Nobody's going to be discussing cultural appropriation when Applause is released, the thread will move on.
     
  9. Flockheart

    Flockheart Guest

    I don't think we should be stopped from discussing it. As Sockmonkey said, it is, after all, on topic.
     
  10. This is it, really. I'm fine with healthy political debate, but I've noticed it's always the same group of people who incite these arguments and they always write some of the most condescending and patronizing posts and generally act as complete twats. It's kind of shocking when we're all supposed to be so 'liberally-minded', yet cannot treat one another as respectable human being when in debate.
     
  11. SockMonkey

    SockMonkey Guest

    I did delete a group of posts in the thread last night and asked people to stop making these discussions personal. That's half the problem, unfortunately. Some people can't just say "I don't agree, here's why.", it has to be "You're such a fucking moron, here's why." Resorting to getting personal in those discussions just makes the person doing it look like the one in the wrong anyway.
     
  12. The problem is not the topic, but the same users making the same posts over and over again.
     
  13. There's a time and a place for this kind of discussion (whether one has a social sciences degree or not), but it's just that a lot (but not all) of the people doing the discussing can't do it tactfully. But that's the Internet for you, I suppose.
     
  14. I'm guessing that I am in the firing line here, but to be honest I thought the discussion was quite calm aside from a few people seeming to purposefully bait TeenIdle (and it kind of working). I'm also quite adamant that I've never (intentionally) been condescending to anyone in these chats, and always done my best to approach them from an explanatory rather than an argumentative point of view. Sorry if not everyone finds it interesting to discuss, but I do. There's plenty of discussion on here that I find a bore, but I don't tend to ask for it to be banned.

    I do think it's a shame that people have to be labelled 'try hard' when posting about something they're interested in and have studied. Jinzo, I've seen you post plenty of mini-essays when a geo-political discussion has popped up and I would never accuse you of spouting bollocks because I know you've studied it and I respect your knowledge of that stuff. Since when did studying something become a reason not to discuss it?
     
  15. If we go down a route of banning anything that generates heated discussion, then yes, let's just discuss Bastille and Avicii ad nauseam.
     
  16. But they're generally in the Off-Topic function. As I say, put it somewhere that isn't a music thread, but it does get hella tiresome when you're having to tread on eggshells posting general irreverence in and around the middle of some ridiculous shouty white supremacy debate between the same 3-4 people.

    "Only white people can be racist". Really, in a Lady Gaga thread? Bleedin' 'ell. The great thing about PJ is being allowed to be a bit wonky and left-of-field when having a chat. With the Social Justice 101 patrol forcing all this race/culture debate which frankly speaking, most of us don't give a fuck about, it's just tedious. It creates a fractious atmosphere, and it's about 12,000% too serious for a pop discussion thread. Time and a place.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  17. I was about to post a comment on how Gaga is enthralled by M.I.A. to the point she wants to be her...and then I read the debate raging, thought better of it and fled the thread. I think it's good when posters can discuss intelligent a complex subject but it'll be difficult to find a balanced view in a Gaga thread. Passions run wild on a pop forum! Some of it is really interesting if you can avoid the petty point scoring from certain posters.
     
  18. Welcome to Popjustice, a world where producers don't remix, they appropriate.
     
  19. They're not Off-Topic at all though. Just because it isn't the type of discussion you want to have, it isn't automatically irrelevant. The discussion has very clearly gone 'reaction to new music' - 'discussion about where it came from' - 'discussion about her use of the word burqa in the song'. There have still been plenty of quips in between, and I don't see why anyone would be treading on eggshells. Just post what you want. I haven't found the atmosphere 'fractious' in the slightest, and I've been one of the people having the discussion. If you do find it that difficult to overlook, then you're free to put everyone involved on your ignore list.

    And I appreciate the point you're trying to make but reducing an entire discussion to some faux-outrage at 'only white people can be racist' is unfair. Being a bit 'wonky and left-of-field' is definitely a plus point for PopJustice, but then so too is the ability to have a grown up discussion.

    I mean, how would you respond if someone created a thread like this asking for any non-relevant mention of Cher Lloyd to be banned? I'm sure some people are bored of that, too. Should it be banned though? Nope.
     
  20. Actually it was, "In a white society only white people can be racist". Which puts the focus on issues such as "the tyranny of the majority". And it can be generalised to any society. But is still so limiting in its definition of the term "racism" that it's distorting and misleading.

    I never really venture into Lady Gaga threads, at least not since the time the last album was released. But I'm not surprised if they suffer from these kind of problems. So it's good if the moderators can give them appropriate attention.
     
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