Katy Perry - The Rate WINNER | Page 49 | The Popjustice Forum

Katy Perry - The Rate WINNER

Discussion in 'Charts, rates etc' started by swim, Sep 14, 2020.

  1. Pendulum is my second highest score eliminated so far. Another song that could have easily been on a different album and would have surely done better then, but what can you do.
  2. Damn there goes my first ten! There's so much rubbish to be eliminated before this... ugh.
    It's a Pendulum, it all goes back around. Wait until the moment I'll tank one of your 10s (probably not so soon)
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
  3. "Use your love" is a song for the club - if it's a rock club of the sort LA used to be famous for.
  4. Can’t wait for the tension headaches when waiting to find out whether Teenage Dream or Never Really Over wins this.

    That is the only rightful top 2.
  5. After a few days, my thread ban has concluded and I’m here to apologize for my actions in this thread.

    Now, I’ve been overthinking how to do this, since issuing an apology for such a broad and complex topic isn’t easy at all, especially because just saying “sorry” without context and, more importantly, not knowing the exact reason behind saying that is pretty much useless in my opinion.

    During these days, I have learned a lot (including one big revelation) and really want to share it with you, since this could potentially help other users learn how to control their reactions and avoid similar situations from happening and escalating in future, as well as show an example of how a forum community could work more efficiently without much effort at all. It took a bit to gather my thoughts and reflect on my actions, but it was undoubtedly worth it. Touching on different topics related to this issue and misconceptions, I will do a summary of things that I believe are very much needed for this forum to hear and apologize alongside, including dissecting all the things that could’ve been found as offensive and interpreted as wrong in my posts. Feel free not to read the following, since not everyone would like to be reminded of these topics again and you certainly have that choice:
    First of all, a small note that this apology is dedicated to everyone, no matter the involvement in and relations to the situation. Also, there are no direct excuses nor defending here, just acknowledging my mistakes and helping others understand why some unfortunate things may have happened, happen and could happen in the future.

    So, like I’ve said, I’ve spent these three days reading and learning about the issues that were addressed regarding my posts and trying to depict what went wrong and what hurt was done in. That includes topics that were pointed out to me, most notably LGBT+ community and straight privilege, but also broadening and going into more detailed observation of the entire concept of communication, mentality and causes as well as importance of arguments, all of which could apply to a discussion on a forum.

    All of the topics related to human psychology are incredibly complex and therefore are never precise enough. Learning about Jane Elliott's Blue Eyes and Brown Eyes, Asch conformity and Milgram experiments during my sociology classes earlier this year quickly made me realize that those experiments are just grains of sand in the entire desert of aspects that form human thinking and psychology.

    Sexuality and LGBT+ community

    As some of you have acknowledged, the members of this forum are mainly from minorities when it comes to sexual orientation. That should make me in the minority here. Quite a concept when thinking about communities/minorities. But that doesn't necesserily have to be brought up for this purpose. Actually, it's not needed at all. Sexuality is such a complex topic; it can fluctuate and, as a result, there are so many different sexualities and even then it's hard to draw the line and Regarding that sentence, I have a confession to make: I’m not completely straight. Yes, I‘ve hinted at this a while ago and multiple times (which happens to be in another rate, coincidentally), but never really planned nor intended to talk about it in detail. Namely, my romantic attraction has always been towards females (crushes included), but the sexuality was always tricky to pinpoint. I was revolving towards asexuality, but it didn’t really fit the term. That’s when I came across the term "demisexuality" and it resonated so much with me. And I was mindblown to find out that demisexual individuals can be counted as part of LGBT+ communities. That was a real eyebrow-raising moment.
    I’ll keep identifying as straight to other people, since it’s mostly true and is just easier to understand, but only delve into more detail when needed. And this didn’t just make me wiser, but also put one important puzzle piece of my identity in its place and it feels so satisfying. I should thank you for letting me know to get more informed about this topic.

    Edit: Among tons of things I forgot to say and indended to correct in this post, the most glaring one is mentioning a YouTube channel that I started watching merely a few weeks before this situation. It's called The Queer Kiwi and has some interesting videos about LGBT+ communities, inequalities, discrimination etc. (including roasting a ridiculously-titled "Straight Pride" appreciation page). It actually made me understand certain things much better and credit is due to be given.

    Sorry for making assumptions of how other people behave without being in their place and listening to their experiences.

    Offense / harm

    There are a few questions regarding these topic that can be raised.
    Is being offended a choice? A seemingly ugly looking question on surface which is actually quite reasonable to be asked. It actually does make sense to think this holds true. But it isn't necessarily true in all situations.
    Another question is: Does offense necessarily result in harm? As you can guess, the answer is complex. Sometimes, offense and harm are viewed as two different concepts. The former being something that can be compared to things like being embarrassed, but the latter is rather focused on resulting in more physically and/or mentally destructive consequences.
    When is something offensive? Very tough question. Is it offensive if it can offend people? Or is it offensive if someone is offended? In theory, anything can be offensive to someone and in return anyone can be offended by something. But in reality is just as tricky to perceive.
    The following links really have a lot of things that can help in better understanding this issue and the aforementioned questions.

    Useful links: The psychology of offense, Prevent harm, allow offence?, Difference(s) between offence and harm

    I apologize for offending anyone, no matter if it was intentionally or not.

    Offense / hurting feelings

    By definition, hurtling feelings is one response of being offended. Another example of that can be anger. It's important to understand how humans react and how their reactions can cause other people to react.
    Humans naturally are vulnerable beings and there's bound to be disagreements and arguments between them - that's completely fine. Even a song can cause, as already seen, plenty of offense and hurt feelings, which is something that never really touched me (subjectively speaking), no matter the topic, but I definitely ignored that others can very much be affected and am to blame for that.

    At the end of the day, whose feelings are hurt shouldn’t be more important than the fact that feelings are being hurt. Each person is an eclectic mix of tons of different communities, so I listen to and speak to people as people (no matter in real life or forums), since hurting feelings is definitely something that can affect everyone on a certain level and therefore is universal. And that definitely doesn't exclude acknowledging differences, but the primary focus being on the person's mentality itself.

    I’m sorry for my thoughts and actions resulting in hurt feelings.


    One thing that many people seem to overlook when discussing complex and controversial topics is the backgrounds of other individuals. We’re not all from English-speaking countries and things can often get lost in translation. Using wrong terminology such as “assimilation” and “freedom of speech” is definitely a mistake on my part and something I should work on.

    Also, educational system and mentality differs a lot from country to country. Coming from a highly homophobic country (in Serbia, 87% of population is against the same-sex marriage), I never had a chance to properly talk to someone about these topics. I can't even imagine talking about LGBT+ community with my friends the way I truly feel about it and not getting some weird looks and being picked on. It's pretty much an unwritten law that you must dislike and have strong prejudice towards that community in my country. Furthermore, I've never had any education on this topic throughout elementary/high school. The only place I've publicly discussed that topic in such way is on this forum, and has obviously proved to be a place where you can learn things that weren't previously disclosed to you.

    I'm sorry for misusing certain terminology in my posts without being informed enough about it, which resulted in some offensive language.

    Valuing an opinion

    Forums naturally contain a myriad of opinions, especially in rates. To be completely honest, I've never been told that my opinions can be valued differently by people depending on communities, and this was literally pointed out to me in this forum for the first time. What was worth clearing up is that each person can form an opinion that is existent, but the value it has among different people is very relative. That's what I've been blind to as being the one to say. @londonrain explained it incredibly well with the “Your opinion doesn't hold the same weight since you don't belong to X” statement, which makes perfect sense.
    Sometimes opinions which are purely based on emotional level aren't completely valid. On the the hand, that applies to many opinions about different important topics which can provide statistical data, but even then are not 100% correct. Opinions on something entirely subjective, like music, are very free to exist in their own without being invalidated by others.
    The bottom line is that opinions can't be completely true nor false objectively unless they stem from facts.

    Useful link: Your right to an opinion does not make your opinion valid

    Sorry for misunderstanding the values of opinions.

    Agreeing and disagreeing

    This is pretty much a follow-up on 'valuing opinions' topic.
    Agreeing/disagreeing is a topic that I think is very important for everyone, including myself, to understand better. Shoutout to @DJHazey's valuable post, which touches this issue and have helped me put some things into perspective, despite realistically not understanding them fully because of my position.
    Common sense tells me that all opinions are both 100% right and 100% wrong, since there's basically no chance that each and every person will completely agree/disagree with it. But the reality could be different. It's just all very relative. There is a thought that arguments are and should be seen as something negative, which isn't true. On the contrary, arguments can be very positive and beneficial. Respecting other people's opinions and disagreeing may seem easy enough, but when so many different backgrounds are present, it's not so simple.

    Useful link: Can we agree to disagree and still get along? (especially the section titled When Attacks Get Personal)

    I’m truly sorry for putting logical thinking over people’s feelings, as well as replying without taking a step aside to think before doing that.

    Managing an argument

    This is perhaps the most important part of discussion, since it covers all of the arguments on important and controversial topics which can happen on this forum.

    Something I came across and found incredibly important are three statements used in a discussion of offence:
    1. The only way you can form an opinion is listening to various sides. The truth or reality is not stagnant - it depends on the observer. Compare it to a diamond, there are many facets and one cannot see them all at the same time. It depends how you place the diamond against light. We may be seeing the same object, but with different perspectives.

    2. If you choose to ignore dissimilar points of view, you will be shutting down an opportunity to learn, develop your knowledge and thoughts, improve emotional maturity. In summary, you will reduce yourself to a blind wall - unable to understand the world, biased, encircled by your own unreasonable beliefs.

    3. It is not about getting offended- it is all about reconsidering what had led people to say or do things that you think are unpleasant. In human relations we are all part of the problem.

    These three points are covering nearly every argument that can happen on this forum, especially the one where it’s mentioned that shutting down the topic, while seeming like the quick solution is not ideal and trying to educate an individual in those instances is surely a better choice.

    Ideally (in my opinion), reactions to the problematic and controversial posts like mine should not result in responses like “Shut up!”, “You’re so dumb/stupid/ignorant.”, snarky GIFs etc. and instead be calmly resolved via PM (this should refer to everyone, including myself), especially when you have something informative to say, and additionally a report to moderators so they can further deal with the situation. These responses don’t benefit to anyone except your ‘like’ count (but that isn’t a person, so it shouldn’t matter) - it’s seemingly adding fuel to the fire, unnecessarily clogging a thread, the individual who is being under attack is not learning anything and therefore the possibility of a similar situation happening again isn’t decreased. On this forum, there are plenty of examples how the misinformed individuals (including myself a few times) keep responding in a hurry, making themselves appear even more problematic and further hurting feelings of other people, just because the initial reaction isn’t adequate enough. In fact, educating someone can do no wrong. It’s a win-win scenario.

    Even more ideally, the controversial posts shouldn’t occur at all, but, as we have seen, they can come from a lot of different backgrounds/intentions/reasons and are quite inevitable to happen sooner or later, since drawing the line whether something is controversial or not is very tricky. Obviously, not posting publicly about those issues may prevent other individuals from learning, but it’s definitely a better choice than potentially causing chaos.

    Ultimately, the universal goal should be not to win the argument, but understand each other better and learn along the way.
    Obviously, there’s still a lot to learn on my part. I still have a lot of doubts, too, and there are a lot of topics still left uncovered, with plenty of nooks and crannies to discuss about them. This should not only be a lesson for me, but also the entire forum community on how managing and reacting to things can really make a huge difference.

    This situation really made me learn a lot and, no matter how hurtful it might be towards any side, has proven to be incredibly useful. I should thank everyone who decided to point out my mistakes and share their feelings and thoughts on them. This ban, which seemed ridiculous to me on impact, actually turned out to be a very wise move from @ohnostalgia and other moderators who investigated on this issue. They deserve a big thank you from me.

    And, obviously, I owe another huge apology to @Lost Boy, who by no means deserved all of this happening in his thread. I can only imagine how horrible all of this looked from that position.
    Finally, a special thank you to the lovely people who took the time to listen to what I had to say and share their thoughts on the entire situation via PM, alongside providing some useful trivia, tips, suggestions and educating me. You know who you are and I’m incredibly grateful for that.

    If anyone has anything to tell me regarding this post, please send me a PM, since this thread really isn’t a place to bring this up again.

    There’s nothing left to say except: Sorry, thank you and… lesson learned.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
    myblood, spaceship, swim and 7 others like this.
  6. I... had never actually got around to watching that One Love performance before until you all mentioned it, so I gave it a go.

    Ye were right, she definitely did that!
  7. I'd stan either one winning but I'd probably say my Top 3 is Thinking Of You, E.T. and Bon Appétit oops!
    Holly Something likes this.
  8. I was about to make a rant about By the Grace of God being one of Katy the songwriter's best, authentic and moving moments, but yeah, I can agree with the production kind of ruining it for the chorus. When I think about By The Grace of God, I do listen to the iHeart and Prismatic performances.

    Island and RainOnFire like this.
  9. [​IMG]
    63. Small Talk
    Average: 6.57 (New entry)
    Highest score: 10x4 @Espeon @Remyky22 @BubblegumBoy @Laura Vanderbooben
    Lowest score: 1x2 @Dangerous Maknae
    My score: 9.5

    The much maligned Charlie Puth assisted follow-up to 'Never Really Over' has had its fair share of criticism, mostly down to the decision for it to lead the campaign following the surprising success of the campaign thus far. Despite being given quality single status and a high-budget dog-filled video, it was thrown to the sidelines and confined to the 'deluxe' side of Smile. Of course now we have learned that Perry and her team were sitting on the likes of 'Cry About It Later' and 'Champagne Problems' when this dropped, but nobody has still been able to make sense as to why they chose this to release. We know that she actually wanted the drawn out process because her and Bloom planned to have the baby, but nobody would wish a campaign tanking song like this on themselves... a shame because I find it to be a lightweight and frothy bop that explodes into Teenage Dream chord glory toward the end.
    62. It Takes Two
    Average: 6.58 (Up 0.96 points, down 12 places.)
    Highest score: 10x2 @GimmeWork @Cognitive Dissonance
    Lowest score: 2.5x1 @Leader Beans
    My score: 8

    If there's anything I am taking away from the rate so far, it's the enormous jump in points that Prism has taken since the last rate. Whilst still not enough for the likes of the maligned back end to vault its way to the top, a whole point increase is absolutely nothing to scoff at. And I'm damn proud because I've always stood by the back end of the album as a really solid affair. 'It Takes Two' is one of the three bonus tracks, of which 'It Takes Two' is definitely the more contemporary or traditional affair, but that's to be expected when a certain Emeli Sande had a hand in its creation.
  10. If I had known y'all were gonna do It Takes Two like this, I would've bumped my 8.5 higher. Frankly, it's the only song in the entire 8(!) song "can you come up with something else" second half of Prism that I would willingly seek out outside of a general playthrough. Well, Spiritual too teebs.
  11. Small Talk should have been part of the regular Smile tracklist, it's such a great track and shouldn't have gone out yet.

    --- SCHMOL TAWK ----
  12. Small Talk going before Smile is a damn mess. I understand it being a poor single choice and all, but y'all not noticing the real enemy.
  13. Small Talk deserved better and that is one of several hills I will die on over the course of this rate
  14. Booting out my two most hated tracks from Prism has been a treat.
  15. [​IMG]
    61. What Makes a Woman
    Average: 6.59 (New entry)
    Highest score: 10x3 @Espeon @BeingNormal @Remorque
    Lowest score: 0x1 @happiestgirl
    My score: 9

    Disclaimer: after creating the artwork I realised the insinuation that pregnancy informs being a woman and want to just say that I am not a woman, will never speak for them and that the ability to create life does not and should not define women. With that out of the way...
    Add 'What Makes a Woman' to the list of bizarre choices made during the Smile campaign, as it leapfrogged other great choices to become the promo single released just before the album as she gave birth to future BPG Daisy. It is beautiful, and it is a great pointer to where she intends to move in the future, reminiscent of her debut roots, but ultimately it's always going to be overshadowed by it being released... and by a minute being chopped off in the process.
    60. Smile
    Average: 6.66 (New entry)
    Highest score: 10x2 @Seventeen Days @Remorque
    Lowest score: 0.5x1 @Jonathan27
    My score: 9

    Fitting perhaps that 'Smile', with my purposefully creepy artwork, falls with a 6.66 average. Another mind-boggling choice, 'Smile' actually leaked with a Diddy feature that would go on to be cut... yet still pressed into the vinyl. The leak preceded its official release by months and ultimately contributed to the release feeling like somewhat of a damp squib. There was also the fact they... just stuck to it regardless of the massive underperformance. At least it went to number one on the UK Airplay chart? I warmed to 'Smile' pretty quickly owing to the lockdown - it's sugary brashness a nice contrast with the depression of modern life - but I can already feel the harshness of its production beginning to grate on me.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
  16. A Smile cull when most of One Of The Boys is still here? This ain't it.
    ohnostalgia, Andrew, j267 and 2 others like this.
  17. It Takes Two is so underrated.

    “Is Mercury in retrograde? Or is that the excuse that I always make?” is a brilliant opening line.
  18. Small Talk | 7.5 | I expected my score for this would be lower because I remember being very underwhelmed compared to Never Really Over or 365 before that, so consider this higher than it could've been.

    It Takes Two | 5.5 | We are 2 for 2 on Prism eliminations!

    What Makes a Woman | 7 | The only other songs we'd like to see go from Smile at the moment is Not the End of the World which also got a 7.

    Smile | 8.5 | Not this one however, I love the production and it's true standout on otherwise very...vanilla album to my ears even though I generally like most of it.
    swim likes this.
  19. I gave Smile a 1. I still can't believe they chose to build the album campaign around the worst song of the era. The videos, game and everything else attached to it were a dumpster fire.
  20. [​IMG]
    59. Deja Vu (New entry)
    Average: 6.67
    Highest score: 10x4 @eatyourself @Lost Boy @DJHazey @soratami
    Lowest score: 3x5 @Remyky22 @Rose-Coloured Boy @muddleddreams @Verandi @Leader Beans

    If there was one song from Witness that deserved better from the voters, it's 'Deja Vu'. Such a brooding masterpiece of a track, with Katy's stretched vocals a sirencall amongst the subtly dark production. It's a rare point in the album where I think the emotion in her vocals manages to pierce through, and there's the clear bones of a sad ballad beneath this. A particular feature for me is the warped 'Deja deja deja vuuu' that plays out in the background. Truly haunting.

    58. Pearl
    Average: 6.77 (Up 0.44 points, down 7 places.)
    Highest score: 10x5 @P'NutButter @unnameable @tylerc904 @Seventeen Days @Andrew.L
    Lowest score: 2x1 @j267
    My score: 9

    'Pearl' is probably the closest she gets to the songwriting style of her debut, but the production here is unquestionably Teenage Dream. I think as time goes on I appreciate more and more that wistful sound that's present on the album - its instantly timeless and recognisable. 'Pearl' occupies a much criticised place for her lyricism, so I'm not entirely surprised at it falling here, but I think it's actually one of her greatest efforts. The way she paints the image of the vulnerable girl using memorable metaphors, sets up that huge chorus, then spins it back around to a self-analysis empowerment anthem. Brilliance.
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