Madonna - General Discussion | Page 357 | The Popjustice Forum

Madonna - General Discussion

Discussion in 'Pop & Justice' started by debord, Jan 14, 2009.

  1. slimane

    slimane Guest

    God has Ariel fricking Levy and Germaine Greer invaded the board. Chill out. If you had read my post you would have noticed I used speech marks around the word male...just because Madonna has a lot of facets to her personality which are generally considered or identified as male doesn't mean I agree with her being percieved in that way.
  2. Ray


    Oh but actually I'd be inclined to agree with that. Madonna isn't the best singer ever, the best actress ever or the best dancer ever. But she's got insane amounts of self-determination, business and PR skills, charisma, patience and work ethics. None of those count as "talent", at least in the artistic meaning of the word, but they have ensured that she would be able to take what she had and turn it into something enormous. Leona Lewis is a better singer than Madonna, but somehow I don't see people discussing Lewis's career choices, boyfriends and new records 20 years from now.
  3. I think this is something a lot of people would agree with. I'm afraid I don't.

    I understand what you mean. Women like Leona Lewis, Celine Dion, 90s Mariah Carey, can belt out a song and will be seen as "better" singers but I can't see them coping with anywhere near the range of genres Madonna has or emoting the way she does on something like "Crazy For You", "Oh Father", "This Used To Be My Playground"... none of which are stellar vocals - her voice cracks at the end of the latter song, but convey far more emotion to me and as such I find her the better singer.
  4. These arguments that Madonna's good business sense made her a star always blow my mind. Perhaps it comes down to the era in which you grew up, but I grew up with Madonna and the music is pure pop art, with her at the center. Always. Those songs define my life. She was never a puppet to anyone - in fact, most of her collaborators kind of flatlined without her.

    Her voice has a rare amount of honesty that people really feel. She is not a belter, nor does she need to be. But she is a striver and for many years improved herself (until hard Candy haha). Always trying to be better is not a business talent or a cynical grab - it is just who she is.
  5. I agree. I love the tone to Madonna's voice and delivery by her in her songs, and every album is never a repeat of the ones before it. She experiments, evolves musically, takes risks in her music at times. Adding to that was creating visual art in her music videos pushing boundaries better than anyone ever has consistently. Then on top of those two things you add the showmanship she has in her concerts and never becoming stale doing the same songs the same way over and over again.
  6. So true. And Mariah Carey, uhg. I love a lot of her songs, but most of her style of singing does nothing for me, for the most part.
  7. I agree, just because Mariah, Celine and Leona have brilliant voices, it doesn't mean their vocal delivery is the "best". All you have to do is listen to songs like Bad Girl and you just hear the authenticity and a simple beauty about Madonna's voice, or Promise to Try, and her post-Evita voice.
  8. Ray


    Mind you, I would like to add here that Madonna does not produce her albums or direct her videos... this is what I mean -- while she doesn't have the talent to do it herself, she has the sense and sensibility (seewhatididthere) to pick people who advance her artistically using *their* talents.

    And to all the people who go on about Celine and Mariah, you didn't get my point -- I didn't say I prefer to listen to Leona, Mariah or Celine, I said that if you got an expert to judge singing ability, Madonna would come last out of those four. Yet somehow it is good ol' Vadge that I keep on listening to, and none of those Very Talented ladies. It was the response to someone saying that Madonna, like Brit Brit, isn't very talented at anything, which I think is pretty much true -- but she has just enough talent, determination, artistic sensibility, etc. to make the most of what she's got and somehow she got the proportions right enough to remain the most exciting pop artist more than 25 years since her debut. Most talented? No. Most exciting, interesting, amazing, groundbreaking and fascinating? Yes.

    Except Hard Candy of course.
  9. Bravo!

    The Madonna as manipulative corporate businesswoman argument bores me to tears. The first time I came across the word 'manipulative' was in one of the Starblitz Madonna specials when I was eight or nine years old. Even then it seemed like a waste of my time - not to mention space where they could have shoehorned in another photo from Desperately Seeking Susan or Shanghai Surprise (contented sigh).

    As despicable as Hard Candy is, and as filled with self-doubt as M seems to have become over the last ten years, I've never doubted her (pop) genius for a second.
  10. Err... but she does. Not the way George Michael or Prince do, no, but she does.
  11. Pretty much all of the producers she's ever worked with have commented on her talent as a producer. William Orbit even said Ray Of Light was more a case of him being produced by her and that it really pissed him off when people happily ignored her name on the credits and referred to him as the sole producer of the album.
  12. What do you mean self-doubt over the last ten years?
  13. Suggesting that my comment was completely uncalled for or a massive overreaction is a tad exasperating, considering what I was saying was as simple as it's wrong to label traits, popularly considered positive, as 'male'. Speech marks are not. You don't agree with her being perceived that way? Great, nor do I (yet I don't think she is, I think she's perceived as being a strong, independent female). Yet if you go back and look at your post, you might understand why someone could quite easily interpret it as you think those qualities are male-exclusive.

    Suggesting that to be independent, intelligent, strong and assertive is gender-neutral doesn't make me a revolutionary, hardcore bra-burner.
  14. Excerpt of interview when she was promoting Truth or Dare in the early ' 90s:

    "The most moving part of the film is where you visit your mother’s grave.

    I still cry when I watch that [she says, apparently on the verge of tears] It was the single most… the greatest event in my life, my mother dying. What happened when I was 6 years old changed forever how I am. I can’t describe in words the effect it had. That’s when the die was cast. I know if I’d had a mother I would be very different. It gave me a lot of what are traditionally looked upon as masculine traits in terms of my ambitiousness and my aggressiveness. Mothers, I think, teach you maners and gentleness and a certain kind of, what’s the word? I don’t want to say subservience, but a patience, which I’ve never had. Then, when my mother died, all of a sudden I was going to become the best student, get the best grades. I was going to become the best singer, the most famous person in the world, everybody was going to love me. I’ve been to analysis and I understand that about myself."
  15. Ray


    If that's the case, how come there are no self-produced Madonna songs?

    I guess it's hard to know those things really unless you're actually in the studio -- there are "artists" who demand to be included as song's co-writers because they ad-libbed "aaahhh" before the second verse AND THAT TOTALLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE and then they're happy to talk in the interviews about their Art etc., and there are Pet Shop Boys, whose demo of I'm With Stupid sounds exactly the same as the Trevor Horn's "production", just slower and less polished.

    I think it's pretty evident from the "tick tock, don't stop me now don't need to catch my breath I can go on and on and on, I never stop, super pop" lyrics, botox/surgery, hanging out with 20-year-olds, slightly panicky attempts at scoring a big hit via Justin Timberlake and even the last tour. I blame Guy. If there is one person in the world that has absolutely no reason to doubt herself, it's Madonna.
  16. Well, I agree with that regarding Hard Candy years, but that was only the last two years or so. You said self-doubt over the last ten years.   When I look at the last ten years,  I see Music, American Life, and I see also Confessions on a Dance Floor with some amazing concerts surrounding those albums in time showing a strong confidence and creativity.

    Hard Candy (even though I like a lot of HC, I agree and get your point about the 4 Minutes/Justin Timberlake thing) and her over-the-top plastic surgery combined with boy toys.   I agree with you.  I think her divorce from Guy and hitting her fifties did a number on her.  I hope it doesn't spill over into her new album and cloud her judgment.
  17. So basically, mid-life crisis? Madonna style, of course.
  18. I've spent the last two days making my ultimate Madonna playlist. It's turned into a digital box set, however and I have 170 tracks in there, all hand-ripped from my CD collection, all tagged with the correct artwork, mix/edit title and in chronological order. I've played it as I've made it and I'm up to 2006... 13 hours of non-stop music in total. Phew! Bloody good, though. The 'American Life'-era is the worst dip in quality... Hard Candy much better.
  19. RJF


    What were your choices from both eras? If you don't me asking.
  20. Oh, well, the plan was to select the best... but I've basically selected everything. I'm played around with the running orders and substituted single mixes for album versions here and there but I've included ALL of both albums. Even crap Madonna is better that a lot of other music!
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