Scottish Independence | The Popjustice Forum

Scottish Independence

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Shockbox, May 17, 2013.

  1. Being Scottish, this is something extremely important to me and my fellow Scots.

    What are your thoughts on Scottish Independence?

    I'm on the fence at the moment. For me there is too much mud slinging from the Better Together campaign who are spending all their time denouncing the Yes Scotlands claims instead of giving us reasons to stay in the Union.
     
  2. It's preposterous.

    I hope independence means England will cut all subsidies it currently gives to Scotland. Bye bye.
     
  3. England does not subsidise Scotland.

    Scotland has 8.4% of the UK Population. Our total tax equals 9.6% and we get 9.3% so thats 0.3% extra that we pay that goes to the rest of the UK.

    If England subsidises Scotland then why is Westminster so keen on keeping Scotland as part of the UK?
    Only one region in Scotland voted Tory in the last election so why would the Tories want us so bad when they could have had a majority government just now if it hadn't been for Scotland.
     
  4. I'm a student in Scotland, but I'm English. I strongly believe that Scotland should remain part of the UK. There are so many factors into it, and you can't simply vote on blind nationalism. Devolution was good decision, and has given Scotland a lot autonomy. Independence is a step too far.

    What works so well about being a United Kingdom, is we have a diversity of areas and different economic strengths. We have London as a financial capital, and we have a lot agriculture and natural resource development in Scotland. By splitting up the union, we start reducing the diversity of our economy (not to mention, anyone who bases Scotland's ability to go independent on the rapidly diminishing North Sea oil/gas needs their head testing). Scotland, on being independent, would probably rejoin the EU instantly to keep the copious agricultural subsidies in place, but there would be such heavy conditions placed on their re-entry, they'd probably have to join the Euro - which in my eyes, signals a loss of autonomy, not an increase in it.

    It's a waste of money on both sides. Shared infrastructures - everything from information databases to national security headquarters - would have to be replicated, at a colossal expense to both the British and Scottish taxpayers. Then there would be the question of how to split currently shared national defence resources, as well as the division of our national debt. Scotland would also have to adjust to a reduced budget, potentially through the dropping of either free prescriptions or free higher education. Currently, per head of the population, a person living in Scotland receives £1600 more in state expenditure than a person living in England annually. All that would have to change if Scotland didn't have Westminster providing it with a budget.

    I hope everyone in Scotland thinks with their head and not their heart. It's easy to get swept up in nationalistic sentiment, but ultimately, it will result in a bleaker, more costly and potentially less free future for Scotland.
     
  5. I think one thing that needs to happen regardless of the outcome is the moving of Trident from the Clyde. I think it's shocking that the UK's nuclear weapons are docked so close to Glasgow!

    They wouldn't allow it in London so it shouldn't be allowed here.
     
  6. SBK

    SBK

    All my family live in Scotland, I was born there.

    I don't think it will do either party any good to break apart the union.
    I really hope people think long and hard about how they vote because its not as simple as just breaking away and things staying the same. Regardless of what Alex Salmond will tell you, they won't be able to afford to keep the current standard of living going for long. Not with Scotland's population aging faster than any other part of the UK's...

    England should also be concerned about them breaking away too, because they do contribute a lot to the overall economy.
     
  7. Now that off-topic is back, we can continue this debate!
     
  8. Solenciennes

    Solenciennes Staff Member

    I was firmly against independence for a long time but the more the Conservatives adversely affect the UK, the more I think Scotland would be better off finding its own way. It's undeniable that things would get worse for us if we left the UK, but at least we wouldn't be ruled by a London-centric right wing government that bears little relevance on Scottish affairs.

    Of course, elections decide who's in power and it won't be Tory-Lib Dem for much longer; but the thing is, Scotland is a left wing country. We shouldn't be ruled by a primarily right wing coalition. Scotland is always adversely affected whenever right wing governments are in charge, more so than any other region. It would be naive to think that we can just step out of the UK and somehow maintain the status quo in every other aspect of Scottish life; but maybe it's not a bad thing. We could forge our own alliances; make closer ties with Scandinavia, for example - Sweden is often cited as the model country for a mid-sized European nation to aspire to be like. It's great being part of the UK, a world power, but the UK's power has been diminishing over time and we shouldn't hang on in there just to pimp that privilege... perhaps it's time for a change.
     
  9. I think Scotland should become independent. I never understood the idea that England is somehow subsidising Scotland - if Scotland wasn't bringing in money then England would drop them like a hot snot.

    The one state that is subsidised by the UK is Northern Ireland (over 30% public employment), and I don't think that English people would be terribly sorry to see Northern Ireland leave the UK, but want to keep Scotland because they do contribute, despite the 'oh we pay for everything' claim, which is arrogant.
     
  10. That might be true, but the UK economy is far from diverse. For the last few decades all growth has been finance-led, and centred in London. I was against independence until I moved from Scotland to the capital and realised how much London (and the City, primarily) is in it for itself. Westminster will always put the London-based financial sector ahead of everything else in the economy because our reputation as an international financial capital is about all we have left. It will never push for Scotland's (or any other UK region's, for that matter) best interests.

    Scotland already has its own distinct education and legal systems, and a sense of social justice that feels increasingly faded down here. So long as the SNP can set out a solid economic plan for independence I'm in favour.
     
  11. I will be voting yes in the Referendum next year and there certainly seems to be a growing amount of people moving towards a yes vote.

    I would love to stay in the UK. I class myself as British and I would prefer to stay united. But the UK doesn't work anymore. Like some of you have said, the Governments primary focus is always going to be London. As long as London is okay, they don't really care about the rest of the UK.

    The Tory/Lib Dem Government are destroying the UK and I think it's really important for Scotland to break away before the damage becomes too great. Privatising the Royal Mail, moving to privatise the NHS, bedroom tax, nukes on the Clyde. All these things are not what the people of Scotland want and we are not being listened to.

    The argument that England subsidises Scotland really bothers me as I find it really disrespectful for anyone to claim that they pay for my way of living. A lot of English people seem to think that we are all unemployed junkies who sit on our arse eating haggis all day. It's very disrespectful. I think rUK is shitting themselves if we do leave because of our oil, our renewables, our water and our agriculture.
     
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  13. How is the UK going to survive when the oil runs out? Westminster haven't set up any sort of backup to make up for the loss of the oil? It makes sense for Scotland to become independent and sort out what is going to be best for us as I wouldn't be surprised if rUK tried to get rid of us once the oil is all gone.
     
  14. SBK

    SBK

    I'm not sure going independent would be a good thing for anyone England (or the rest of the UK) or Scotland. To me it seems like Alex Salmond dreamt about it as a child and is now trying to steam roller it through to make sure he's mentioned in the history books next to Braveheart.

    I don't think anyone on either side quite knows how the economics of it will play out. I actually think that'll not be as easy a transition financially for Scotland as the yes campaign would make out. I actually think if you think you're hard done by the current government you'll be wishing them back in 5 years if Scotland votes yes.

    Also using this as a protest vote agains the Tory-Lib Dem coalition is a bit silly, thats going to be a thing of the past in 18 months.

    The whole London centric argument is lost on me as well. Because for those of us living here its not the utopia being showered with funding people would have everyone believe. Hospitals are being closed, police are being cut back, fire stations are closing. If anything the young people living in London are poorer than the average young person across the country. Rent can be over 50% of someones wage packet.
    My rent for my one bedroom flat is more than my mum and dads 3 bed house mortgage outside Glasgow.


    So yeah, I'd vote no if I were still in Scotland. I think a yes will lead to a whole lot of unforeseen problems both economic and social.
     
  15. SBK

    SBK

    How is anyone going to survive when the oil runs out? No ones prepared. Although 'Westminster' have actually approved plans for a new nuclear power plant to power the UK.

    I think relying on oil would be foolish. What happens to Scotland's finances when thats gone in <50 years?
     
  16. SBK

    SBK

    I completely agree, Europe has already said that if the break away they'll have to apply to join the EU, which would completely ruin all exciting trade agreements.
    They'll be lumped in with all those Eastern European countries that are being drip fed in. It could be years before they get the same benefits they enjoyed as part of the UK.
     
  17. Rmx

    Rmx

    It's important for all of the UK that London does well, though. It's Europe's financial centre. If something in London goes tits up the entire UK will feel the blow as companies will not just leave the city but probably leave the country. Also, rent and pay are higher in London which automatically means more tax revenue, the city probably funds itself right. Besides, it's not even that rich a city, not everyone lives in Westminster.

    I think similar issues arise in a lot of countries. The capital is usually a different world than the rest of the country, and there's always far-away provinces in which ideas for independence rise.
     
  18. Did they really announce this? I figured Spain would come out against it, as it would set a precedent for Catalonia., even if Spain and the UK are not super best friends at the moment.
     
  19. I'm not saying you are wrong but Westminster have squandered that oil and they have no plans for what we will do when it is gone. And I'm sorry but a nuclear power plant is not the answer. I don't agree with nuclear power plants at all.

    I'd also like to point out that Europe has NEVER said that Scotland would need to apply from outside of the EU. That is propaganda being spouted by the No campaign. The EU have not made the answer to this clear. Some from the EU have said we would have to apply from outside, others have said we would have to apply from the inside. There is no definitive answer.
     
  20. Isn't the United Kingdom more or less a Federation, as in, constituents don't actually have the right to break away (without hurting the Union's sovereignty and thus inviting violence)?
     
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