Star Trek

[carlos_b_fly]

DISCOVERY was a controversial flagship show.

It stopped being the flagship show the moment Picard started and later, when SNW arrived.

After that, the heat was off it given the later two shows outperformed it in viewership and generated far more press attention. Discovery very much then became a third place title and no longer the franchise flagship.

It was however, a very expensive and still very important show that was definitely dogged by endless controversy and a notorious reputation that was always going to be a weight around its neck. I still think the series had another season or so in it but there was no way it was ever going to win people around, the damage was done.

 

[heartmightmelt]

This. I love Discovery dearly but anytime Michael pontificates on the ideals of the Federation I want to burst my eardrums. Pike’s big speech to the Kylie government in Strange New Worlds premiere episode is another hideous example. I get Star Trek is preachy all the time at times, but that was particularly hideous (even if (thinly-veiled) points were made).

I much prefer the interpretation that the Federation is a big lumbering organisation where the only perfect humans were the bridge crew of the Enterprise-D. At no point has Star Trek actually shown anybody else in the Federation embodying the ideals of the organisation anywhere near how that crew did. Sisko and Janeway gave a few pro-Federation monologues in their time too but clearly weren't paying too much attention to the details in class. The Big Michael Speeches always feel like Soniqua was told to recite a press release about Star Trek.

I still think [Discovery] had another season or so in it but there was no way it was ever going to win people around, the damage was done.

A bit like Enterprise in the end. Season four might have won back the people who gave up on it during the trenches of season two, but it was never gonna bring back people had switched off long before it premiered, or win over anyone who had never watched Star Trek before.

 

[Mikey1701]

It stopped being the flagship show the moment Picard started and later, when SNW arrived.

After that, the heat was off it given the later two shows outperformed it in viewership and generated far more press attention. Discovery very much then became a third place title and no longer the franchise flagship.

It was however, a very expensive and still very important show that was definitely dogged by endless controversy and a notorious reputation that was always going to be a weight around its neck. I still think the series had another season or so in it but there was no way it was ever going to win people around, the damage was done.

I just hope in twenty years time it gets reappraised much like Enterprise has been (bizarrely) in recent years.

 

[heartmightmelt]

It took me til 2010 to give Enterprise a chance and did a rewatch. And then another four years to second rewatch and found a lot to love once it was out of the context of 2001-2005. The decontamination scenes and excuses to get Jolene naked to appeal to what they stubbornly thought was an audience of 100% basement nerds is still utterly risible. I found a lot of its AMERICANS! IN SPACE! tedious in that exceedingly Go!-USA-climate time in the wake of 9/11 but before the War on Terror started to drag on. But I over time I massively warmed to Connor Trineer and his frosted tips and stuck with it. About 45% of the episodes are worth it, which is a better ratio than The Original Series.

I think Discovery will be treated better when the fanbase ages a bit and fans who are not so precious about 1990's ensemble drama series conventions become louder in the socials. And/or when Roger Meyer Burnett and Doomcock and the YouTube Anger-Farming industry fuck off.

 

[Mikey1701]

I definitely had my issues with the needless T’Pol-In-Decon scenes but I definitely remember 13 year old me paying close attention anytime Connor Trineer took his top off.

 

[manloveuk]

Seven Of Nine asking 'Tuvok' about Janeway - if they're not intending to announce some kind of Voyager sequel a-la Picard, all of this will have been just cruel!

 

[Mikey1701]

Seven Of Nine asking 'Tuvok' about Janeway - if they're not intending to announce some kind of Voyager sequel a-la Picard, all of this will have been just cruel!

Prodigy is esentially a sequel to Voyager at this point, especially the latter half and the direction they seem to be taking for the upcoming Season Two.

 

[carlos_b_fly]

I just hope in twenty years time it gets reappraised much like Enterprise has been (bizarrely) in recent years.

I.... don't think it well but time will tell. When the nonsense and drama drops off from both sides, I think the show will be reviewed in a much cooler mindset and it'll be seen as an okay Trek show with very average writing and tropes that I think will age badly (such as the modern speak, a very bad call that will date it terribly).

I do think it'll have a soft spot with new fans though, for people who loved it and it was their Star Trek, their intro to the franchise. It'll forever having an interesting chapter in the franchise as well.

 

[carlos_b_fly]

Probably the weakest Picard of the season this week but watchable enough. It feel a bit like treading water and they are dragging out stuff with Jack a little too long for my liking. Lets wrap this up next week and not pile loads of twists and last minute info drops into the two part finale.

 

[heartmightmelt]

I.... don't think it well but time will tell. When the nonsense and drama drops off from both sides, I think the show will be reviewed in a much cooler mindset and it'll be seen as an okay Trek show with very average writing and tropes that I think will age badly (such as the modern speak, a very bad call that will date it terribly).

I do think it'll have a soft spot with new fans though, for people who loved it and it was their Star Trek, their intro to the franchise. It'll forever having an interesting chapter in the franchise as well.

Yeah the modern speak I have... conflicting feelings about. Prior Trek was a sort of classical dialogue but not classical. Period specific language but not a historical period. As much as that was a hallmark of the franchise, it also made it a bit stodgy and quaint at times and sometimes made it feel a bit older than it was. That said, I'm glad that Voyager or Deep Space Nine never had a character describe some anomoly as "totally excellent" or asked "could I BE any more Romulan?" I really think some of the modern speak draws way to much attention to itself, example: the time that the Discovery/Zora said "I feel seen".

 

[carlos_b_fly]

Yeah the modern speak I have... conflicting feelings about. Prior Trek was a sort of classical dialogue but not classical. Period specific language but not a historical period. As much as that was a hallmark of the franchise, it also made it a bit stodgy and quaint at times and sometimes made it feel a bit older than it was. That said, I'm glad that Voyager or Deep Space Nine never had a character describe some anomoly as "totally excellent" or asked "could I BE any more Romulan?" I really think some of the modern speak draws way to much attention to itself, example: the time that the Discovery/Zora said "I feel seen".

Picard is balancing it out a bit better in terms of feeling semi-Shakespearean, giving the show that slightly more timeless tone to the dialogue. Like a lot of things on Discovery, it was very bold and OTT but also not massively well thought through to make characters sound just like us (or an LA teenager in 2023).

 

[carlos_b_fly]

I love Discovery dearly but anytime Michael pontificates on the ideals of the Federation I want to burst my eardrums.

This is where I always felt sorry for Sonequa. They always piled these God awful melodramatic speeches on her that were supposed to be profound but you just ended up with Michael in near tears and looking like she was about to poop herself.

She could play naturally strong actually quite well but the writing often undermined her to just end up doing the same OTT speeches.

 

[Gemini]

Some thoughts on today's episode:

Spoiler

Okay I don't mind what they did with Data here, but I do think it undermines a lot of what they did with season 1 Data. And them now trying to write it off as "two different Datas" is just kind of weird to me. But, fine, whatever roundabout excuse they've come up with has gotten him with the gang. I just wish they had the foresight to not have killed him in season 1 before realizing "oh wait, we want him for the end of this series too".
Vadic was a great villain, in my opinion. Terrifying, poetic, threatening... Everything that makes a good Star Trek villain she possessed. Hopefully whoever her Changeling leader is will be able to top that because that was excellent acting.
Jack... I just want the damn reveal of what's going on with him. I'm not sold still that I will like the pay off. But his ability to astral project into someone's body is interesting. It's the where/why/how he gained this ability that I am nervous for the answer of. But, hey, we got Deanna being useful and doing some mind meld type nonsense now I guess.

 

[heartmightmelt]

Some thoughts on today's episode:

Spoiler

Okay I don't mind what they did with Data here, but I do think it undermines a lot of what they did with season 1 Data. And them now trying to write it off as "two different Datas" is just kind of weird to me. But, fine, whatever roundabout excuse they've come up with has gotten him with the gang. I just wish they had the foresight to not have killed him in season 1 before realizing "oh wait, we want him for the end of this series too".
Vadic was a great villain, in my opinion. Terrifying, poetic, threatening... Everything that makes a good Star Trek villain she possessed. Hopefully whoever her Changeling leader is will be able to top that because that was excellent acting.
Jack... I just want the damn reveal of what's going on with him. I'm not sold still that I will like the pay off. But his ability to astral project into someone's body is interesting. It's the where/why/how he gained this ability that I am nervous for the answer of. But, hey, we got Deanna being useful and doing some mind meld type nonsense now I guess.

Spoiler

Bizarrely, I'm kind of alright with the appearance of Not-Data, but I was and remain absolutely against what they wrote in season 1 with Data's consciousness.

I know everyone says it's Star Trek, you can always come back from the dead, but I don't like as a viewer, with real emotional connections to these characters, being undermined. I'm pretty cool with dead characters staying dead and I'm sick of actors playing relatives of dead characters they used to play. Example: I know she's popular, but Sela was an incompetent villain and her entire existence undid Alternate Tasha Yar (and TNG's best episode) of a perfect heroic ending.

Data's Tasha hologram making an appearance was lovely though. It's entirely in character that she'd be one of his strongest memories.

I expect a bit of online discussion on Shaw's non-resistance on the bridge while his crew were being threatened/executed. Was it to set up a reason so that Seven could have a Harrison Ford Is The President Air Force One moment ("GET ORF MY PLANE") or is it to give Shaw the motivation to go for a big poetic heroic sacrifice at some point in the next two weeks? I know he's by-the-book, but he went from Blow The Turbolift With Me In It to If I Stand Here Quietly Maybe They'll Pick Someone Else in the space of twenty minutes of screen time.

Dunno about anyone else but the Troi/Riker scenes were very tonally weird. Some of it was cute but it was jarring next to what was going on with the Titan. I know the real world reasons for Troi not showing up til now, but in-universe she'd have sussed Jack in the first ten minutes of the second episode. After theorising that he was either a clone or a synth, I'm not really sure that I'm on board with Jack being a Sense8.

 

[Gemini]

Spoiler

Bizarrely, I'm kind of alright with the appearance of Not-Data, but I was and remain absolutely against what they wrote in season 1 with Data's consciousness.

I know everyone says it's Star Trek, you can always come back from the dead, but I don't like as a viewer, with real emotional connections to these characters, being undermined. I'm pretty cool with dead characters staying dead and I'm sick of actors playing relatives of dead characters they used to play. Example: I know she's popular, but Sela was an incompetent villain and her entire existence undid Alternate Tasha Yar (and TNG's best episode) of a perfect heroic ending.

Data's Tasha hologram making an appearance was lovely though. It's entirely in character that she'd be one of his strongest memories.

I expect a bit of online discussion on Shaw's non-resistance on the bridge while his crew were being threatened/executed. Was it to set up a reason so that Seven could have a Harrison Ford Is The President Air Force One moment ("GET ORF MY PLANE") or is it to give Shaw the motivation to go for a big poetic heroic sacrifice at some point in the next two weeks? I know he's by-the-book, but he went from Blow The Turbolift With Me In It to If I Stand Here Quietly Maybe They'll Pick Someone Else in the space of twenty minutes of screen time.

Dunno about anyone else but the Troi/Riker scenes were very tonally weird. Some of it was cute but it was jarring next to what was going on with the Titan. I know the real world reasons for Troi not showing up til now, but in-universe she'd have sussed Jack in the first ten minutes of the second episode. After theorising that he was either a clone or a synth, I'm not really sure that I'm on board with Jack being a Sense8.

Spoiler

It just doesn't feel like the series needed what happened to Data in season 1 AND ALSO what has happened to Data in season 3. Like it needed one or the other, but not both. And I actually prefer what they did with him here. Season 1 was... weird. I actually sort of like that this season sort of lives as it's own thing and the only thread that really has carried to this final season is Picard having a new body, and also Raffi. (I miss Elnor though, because the actor is hot.)
And I agree with Shaw. It was very weird how quiet he was in this episode. He went from angrily telling Picard and Riker that they have condemned the crew to death at the beginning of the season, to now bridge officers literally being executed in front of them with zero comment, and zero sacrifice? It was weird.
And I ALSO agree that the Troi and Riker moments in the Changeling brig were... weird. It didn't strike me really emotionally at all. And I thought what Worf was trying to say to Deanna about how her influence in his life has guided him towards his current path of enlightenment, was sweet. But it was totally played as a joke and nothing more which I don't feel like it needed to be.
There's definitely some weird plot holes and inconsistencies. I'm just trying to suspend some disbelief here because it's Trek and scifi. I just hope the conclusions here are satisfying.

 

[Mikey1701]

Spoiler

It just doesn't feel like the series needed what happened to Data in season 1 AND ALSO what has happened to Data in season 3. Like it needed one or the other, but not both. And I actually prefer what they did with him here. Season 1 was... weird. I actually sort of like that this season sort of lives as it's own thing and the only thread that really has carried to this final season is Picard having a new body, and also Raffi. (I miss Elnor though, because the actor is hot.)
And I agree with Shaw. It was very weird how quiet he was in this episode. He went from angrily telling Picard and Riker that they have condemned the crew to death at the beginning of the season, to now bridge officers literally being executed in front of them with zero comment, and zero sacrifice? It was weird.
And I ALSO agree that the Troi and Riker moments in the Changeling brig were... weird. It didn't strike me really emotionally at all. And I thought what Worf was trying to say to Deanna about how her influence in his life has guided him towards his current path of enlightenment, was sweet. But it was totally played as a joke and nothing more which I don't feel like it needed to be.
There's definitely some weird plot holes and inconsistencies. I'm just trying to suspend some disbelief here because it's Trek and scifi. I just hope the conclusions here are satisfying.

Spoiler

I am all for them retconning/glossing over/hand waving most of Season One. That mess is down there with Season Two of Enterprise as some of the worst Trek ever released. All that build up for an insulting and rushed finale that is literally solved by Soji waving her hands about.

And don’t even get me started on legacy characters not acting anything like they used to do- Seven could well have been a brand new character the way she was written.

 

[DoggySwami]

Yeah I pretty much share the thoughts in here.

Spoiler

I thought the episode was a bit filler until we got the end of Vadik, which is not great if the season has 10 episodes, but at least that's something they got out of the way.

I'm still afraid they don't have enough time to solve the changeling conspiracy and bidding farewell to Picard, and in my experience if they are not rushing with developments at this point is because they don't actually have that much more story to tell.

Perhaps it's because I'm rewatching DS9 at the same time but it's weird if they solve the whole return of the changelings in a handful of episodes, when the Dominion war took multiple 26-episode seasons.

Picard as a show is shaping up strangely because it's lacking in what it supposedly has: Planning and a set duration. On one hand the course correction is allowing them to end on a high, and on the other it's making the first 2 seasons irrelevant at best and redundant at worst.

 

[Gemini]

Yeah I pretty much share the thoughts in here.

Spoiler

I thought the episode was a bit filler until we got the end of Vadik, which is not great if the season has 10 episodes, but at least that's something they got out of the way.

I'm still afraid they don't have enough time to solve the changeling conspiracy and bidding farewell to Picard, and in my experience if they are not rushing with developments at this point is because they don't actually have that much more story to tell.

Perhaps it's because I'm rewatching DS9 at the same time but it's weird if they solve the whole return of the changelings in a handful of episodes, when the Dominion war took multiple 26-episode seasons.

Picard as a show is shaping up strangely because it's lacking in what it supposedly has: Planning and a set duration. On one hand the course correction is allowing them to end on a high, and on the other it's making the first 2 seasons irrelevant at best and redundant at worst.

Yeah I did not even watch season 2 aside from a couple episodes and i'm not lost at all. It's as if nothing that happened there mattered. And the only thing referenced from season 1 has been Data's death and Picard's synth body. Several times I found myself thinking "Man, this should've been Picard Season 1".

 

[Scaper]

This should have been Picard Season 1 but couldn't be because Patrick only agreed to return if it wasn't a Starfleet-based series. They crafted S1 around his wishes for the character. It was necessary to ease him back into what viewers actually wanted to see but no-one involved with the show seems at all attached to the previous seasons. Michael Chabon left, Picard was always second to SNW for Akiva Goldsman, and Kirsten Beyer moved with him.

Terry's passion and vision I'm sure made a convincing pitch to all the execs, including Alex Kurtzman and Patrick, and so a soft reboot was OK'd. Terry described Raffi as having undergone as slight reinvention this season (although I don't think she is all that different) so his remit was clearly to do what he needed to fit his vision. He has done a stellar job so far - I just think the season could have been tighter at 6-8 episodes. We spent a long time in that 'nebula' at the start and this siege also could done with being one episode.

 

[bonnieetclyde]

I'm thoroughly enjoying this new series of Picard (I must admit I got bored during season 2 and dropped off and never finished it). This latest episode was pure joy and I loved seeing them all sat around that table. I just hope the pay-off with what's happening with Jack is worth it.