Yeah, I really don’t agree that women just have to take on being slammed by media for dumb shit. It’s barely heard, anyway, even when they do complain. I wish Taylor would also speak on Britney though, I’m sure she knows she’s “safe” to have this outburst in a post-Framing environment.
Taylor Swift
- Thread starter festivereece
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Mr.Arroz
Staff member
He/Him/His
I think is kinda what people mean when they mention "Britney" as a topic being shoehorned into other threads here. Let's keep these conversations to their respective thread(s), and should they crossover subject-wise, then we can let that happen organically rather than by wishful thinking.
Thanks x
Mr.Arroz
Staff member
He/Him/His
I just deleted another response re: Britney.
My first reply above asked that all members on this forum keep any discussion (and "I wish XYZ celebrity would say something pls!") of Britney's plight to her thread. Taylor's actions today had nothing to do with Britney, so like I said - this discussion here is for Taylor's tweet, its subsequent circumstances, and anything else that may arise. That's the line being drawn here, now move on.
My first reply above asked that all members on this forum keep any discussion (and "I wish XYZ celebrity would say something pls!") of Britney's plight to her thread. Taylor's actions today had nothing to do with Britney, so like I said - this discussion here is for Taylor's tweet, its subsequent circumstances, and anything else that may arise. That's the line being drawn here, now move on.
Change of subject and a potentially unpopular opinion around these parts: I don't like 'Style' - I think it's the chorus lyrics I can't get on board with. evermore is currently on repeat and still unsure of how I rate it compared to folklore. For me, I think they are both a 10 for different reasons. I am really hoping for a third installment.
Somehow this managed to be the worst take I've seen in this thread today which is...really saying something.
The men in here implying that Taylor should suck it up or ignore it because they think it's not a big deal and there are worse things happening in the world are not it. And I'm not sure how in 2021, men are still trying to undermine women's valid anger as a power trip or a tantrum. It's pathetic.
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This thread two days ago:
he/him
Hey all. I'm going to try and keep it as short (for me ddd), but I just want to make it abundantly clear where I stand on this issue, because this whole situation has been bothering me since yesterday.
I adore Taylor Swift. I find her to be a fascinating human, an insanely smart business woman, and one of the best songwriters in popular music today. She's an absolute gift, and one of my favorite artists. I also adore y'all. Every celebrity has toxic and dangerous stans, and Taylor seems to have more than most, but that's not the people here at all. The Swifties on PopJustice stan hard, but in the way that we all stan artists or else we wouldn't be here.
With all that said, I something think that there is this impenetrable force around Taylor that doesn't allow for any sort of criticism or critical discussion around her. I get that Taylor has been the brunt of a lot of media scrutiny for every reason under the sun throughout her career. I get that fans have often felt the need to defend her against her detractors, of which there are many. But none of this takes away from the fact that Taylor herself is a human and not without her faults.
Taylor was alerted to a joke on a television show. She found the joke to be misogynistic, sexist, and tired. We can all debate about the severity of the joke based on our own personal threshold or experience until the cows come home, but the fact is, she didn't appreciate the joke and it upset her enough to speak on it. That's all well and good. She is well within her right to be upset and to address it. No one is saying she isn't. I actually shouldn't speak for everyone, but I'll say, I'm certainly not saying that. Hell, I'm usually with y'all on the front lines of saying "Men need to stay out of women's business" or "Stop telling women how to react in 2021." But I think that's a bit of a simplistic take of what's been happening here.
Taylor did not get to where she is by being naive, and I just think Taylor should have known better as to what the result of her Tweet would be. Taylor has more power than most. She could amass a literal army if she wanted to. She wasn't aware of the joke until her fans brought it to her attention, so she already knew they were on the warpath. And the way she addressed it only fanned the flames of her toxic fandom, of which she knows their behavior.
And now we've seen a mix raced actress who is new to the scene get harassed on social media by a legion of fans over a line of dialogue for a fictional character of which she didn't write. We've seen Black people go to a Netflix Tweet celebrating the posthumous award win of Chadwick Boseman see a string of "RESPET TAYLOR SWIFT" tweets, followed by a lot of "Delete this bestie, not here" tweets from other Swifties trying to cover up the fandom's bad behavior. (She's already the poster girl for "White feminism" from those don't like her, and this certainly doesn't help her cause.) None of these things are okay. I'm not implying that you all think it's okay. But this type of behavior is potentially dangerous, and Taylor inadvertently encouraged it with that tweet.
I don't think Taylor woke up and decided to Tweet that and thought, "I can't wait until my fans demolish this new actress, it's what she deserves." I don't think she thought at all, and in her position and power, she kind of has to. We all know that Taylor has an extremely kind, generous, and thoughtful heart. If and when she does realize that her Tweet is causing this type of reaction and behavior, you know she's going to be feel awfully about it.
If the whole point in all of this is that words hurt, words mean something, and words have consequences, Taylor has to remember that hers do too. And whether it's her job to monitor and curb her fandom's more insidious impulses or not, she's the only one that can, and she kind of exacerbated it this time.
Anyway, I'm going to step away from the convo now. I'm MeredithMarks-Disengaging.Gif. I still love Taylor and I love and respect all of you. And I totally respect her right to be upset about a bad joke made at her expense. I just wish she handled this differently.
And at least I love Style.
I adore Taylor Swift. I find her to be a fascinating human, an insanely smart business woman, and one of the best songwriters in popular music today. She's an absolute gift, and one of my favorite artists. I also adore y'all. Every celebrity has toxic and dangerous stans, and Taylor seems to have more than most, but that's not the people here at all. The Swifties on PopJustice stan hard, but in the way that we all stan artists or else we wouldn't be here.
With all that said, I something think that there is this impenetrable force around Taylor that doesn't allow for any sort of criticism or critical discussion around her. I get that Taylor has been the brunt of a lot of media scrutiny for every reason under the sun throughout her career. I get that fans have often felt the need to defend her against her detractors, of which there are many. But none of this takes away from the fact that Taylor herself is a human and not without her faults.
Taylor was alerted to a joke on a television show. She found the joke to be misogynistic, sexist, and tired. We can all debate about the severity of the joke based on our own personal threshold or experience until the cows come home, but the fact is, she didn't appreciate the joke and it upset her enough to speak on it. That's all well and good. She is well within her right to be upset and to address it. No one is saying she isn't. I actually shouldn't speak for everyone, but I'll say, I'm certainly not saying that. Hell, I'm usually with y'all on the front lines of saying "Men need to stay out of women's business" or "Stop telling women how to react in 2021." But I think that's a bit of a simplistic take of what's been happening here.
Taylor did not get to where she is by being naive, and I just think Taylor should have known better as to what the result of her Tweet would be. Taylor has more power than most. She could amass a literal army if she wanted to. She wasn't aware of the joke until her fans brought it to her attention, so she already knew they were on the warpath. And the way she addressed it only fanned the flames of her toxic fandom, of which she knows their behavior.
And now we've seen a mix raced actress who is new to the scene get harassed on social media by a legion of fans over a line of dialogue for a fictional character of which she didn't write. We've seen Black people go to a Netflix Tweet celebrating the posthumous award win of Chadwick Boseman see a string of "RESPET TAYLOR SWIFT" tweets, followed by a lot of "Delete this bestie, not here" tweets from other Swifties trying to cover up the fandom's bad behavior. (She's already the poster girl for "White feminism" from those don't like her, and this certainly doesn't help her cause.) None of these things are okay. I'm not implying that you all think it's okay. But this type of behavior is potentially dangerous, and Taylor inadvertently encouraged it with that tweet.
I don't think Taylor woke up and decided to Tweet that and thought, "I can't wait until my fans demolish this new actress, it's what she deserves." I don't think she thought at all, and in her position and power, she kind of has to. We all know that Taylor has an extremely kind, generous, and thoughtful heart. If and when she does realize that her Tweet is causing this type of reaction and behavior, you know she's going to be feel awfully about it.
If the whole point in all of this is that words hurt, words mean something, and words have consequences, Taylor has to remember that hers do too. And whether it's her job to monitor and curb her fandom's more insidious impulses or not, she's the only one that can, and she kind of exacerbated it this time.
Anyway, I'm going to step away from the convo now. I'm MeredithMarks-Disengaging.Gif. I still love Taylor and I love and respect all of you. And I totally respect her right to be upset about a bad joke made at her expense. I just wish she handled this differently.
And at least I love Style.
"So, we're not fans of Taylor Swift, but I'm sure she's lovely. LOVELY!"
"...I'm not sure she's lovely..."
"Well, me neither."
While it's unfortunate that some stans go overboard and get irrational, I don't think it's fair to put Taylor at fault for reacting to that "joke" because of what some irrational people might do (and were already doing before she even said anything). You could always make the excuse of "well the crazy stans wouldn't have done this if their fave didn't do that!!" and it's not really fair.
He/Him
The stans probably would have done all of that even if she hadn't said anything.
Her reply was more mild mannered and nice than mine would've been, point blank. Speaking as a woman who's gotten these comments several times, we get them all the time even if we're not world famous, and it fucking sucks then so I can't imagine what it's like to have dealt with it for over a decade, on the world's stage. It's really ridiculous to make these same tired ass "jokes" in 2021. It wasn't funny in 2010 either, and especially not now with the current climate and conversations being had.
I think she does actually really internalize criticism and take it to heart. The entirety of Miss Americana was about that very thing. She doesn't always course correct in the right direction, but she's not immune to the critics, and if this were happening 5 years ago, she'd be bending over backwards to try and "win" the approval of people again. It's not her responsibility that people are pissed (even before she said anything) and what happens to the show, the writers and/or the actors is their responsibility. Women (and of course everyone) should not have to take the shit that gets thrown at them and then apologize for what happens to the people that threw it in the first place. It's always the woman that needs to be poised, well thought, kind, tolerant, and handle a situation with such perfection. It's always the woman's fault if the assholes who brought all of it on in the first place don't like it, or if they god forbid suffer any consequences. It's not a woman's job to be nice all the time. Fuck that.
I think she does actually really internalize criticism and take it to heart. The entirety of Miss Americana was about that very thing. She doesn't always course correct in the right direction, but she's not immune to the critics, and if this were happening 5 years ago, she'd be bending over backwards to try and "win" the approval of people again. It's not her responsibility that people are pissed (even before she said anything) and what happens to the show, the writers and/or the actors is their responsibility. Women (and of course everyone) should not have to take the shit that gets thrown at them and then apologize for what happens to the people that threw it in the first place. It's always the woman that needs to be poised, well thought, kind, tolerant, and handle a situation with such perfection. It's always the woman's fault if the assholes who brought all of it on in the first place don't like it, or if they god forbid suffer any consequences. It's not a woman's job to be nice all the time. Fuck that.
If I could give your post a thousand likes, I definitely would. Perfectly said. Thank you for expressing so eloquently what I couldn't
I really don’t want this to come off as a defense of slut-shaming or diminishing what Taylor or any other women feel offended by, but I just got to the episode of Ginny and Georgia where the line is included and it’s not really a “joke” in the context of the show? It’s a weird, throwaway line used in a heated conflict. Like it’s clearly meant to be a hurtful insult that the show frames as such. It would be one thing if it were solely framed as a cheap, "witty" punchline at Taylor’s expense but it makes somewhat more sense in context coming from a flawed, judgmental and prudish teenager in the heat of a moment - in a show that frequently uses weirdly dated pop culture references to stuff millennials are more likely to remember than Gen Z (the whole show being a rip-off of better shows from the aughts like Gilmore Girls, references to Lady Gaga’s meat dress, a character’s drag name being Avril Vagine). Like most of the show’s references it would have probably made more sense if the show came out 10 years ago, but in context it’s more corny and badly written than malicious in intent.
But I get that intent and outcome are two very different things; and it doesn't really matter what the intentions were when the outcome was hurtful to someone who has struggled with that perception her entire young adult life, that it perpetuates a certain myth about her that (like her tweet says) was more "acceptable" in 2010 than it is in 2021. Like if they had thought about the line for more than a second when they were writing it, they would have included a line where Georgia references Taylor's much less "exciting" dating history the past 5 or so years in response, or have the characters come to realize that maybe "caring" so much about who adult women sleep with is the kind of paternalistic shit we need to expel from a modern society. The criticisms of it definitely could have easily been avoided by better writing, though I do think the end goal of the show is well-intended as well; for a character like Ginny who is so steeped in anxiety and worry about "fitting in" and what other people think of her to become her own person eventually. To be able to recognize such internalized misogyny and not live in shame and worry about things men receive no criticisms whatsoever for.
Ironically that's ultimately what I think both Taylor and the show aimed for, but with very mixed results. It's great that Taylor is using her voice about things that specifically bother her, hopefully inspiring and emboldening younger fans to not put up with the sexism they might encounter in their own lives. I can only imagine what a 16 year old would feel seeing their idol stand up for themselves like this.
I'm also concerned like others have said, about the implications of someone as powerful as Taylor mobilizing their fanbase to attack anyone involved in a throwaway line with zero context of the actual content of the scene. It reminds me of when the new Saved By The Bell reboot had a plot line where the teens were increasingly losing it over having their phones confiscated and "not knowing who donated their kidney to Selena". Like the mere mention of Selena's kidney was enough to make the stans go ballistic and made Peacock issue an apology statement and scrub the episode for any mention of it. It's good that we are becoming more critical of pop culture and start having a larger on-going discussion about what should and should not be accepted as "jokes" in a more equal society, especially in light of some of the truly horrific horseshit talkshow hosts like Jimmy Kimmel and David Letterman were peddling on the regular a decade ago. What's simultaneously concerning is the idea that celebrities should dictate whatever content is made about them, as if a mere mention of someone in a negative context is enough to get a show re-edited. Or that we should validate stans harassing people whether it's for writing an 8.0 review on Pitchfork or for speaking a line of dialogue they most likely didn't write on a TV show.
That's not to say Taylor isn't in her right to criticize what she felt annoyed by, or that there shouldn't be a discussion about it, because I think there is value in that discussion. I just wish there was more room for nuance in how it is actually being discussed; how the framing and tone of something might entirely change its meaning, how something might be well-intentioned and still be problematic.
But I get that intent and outcome are two very different things; and it doesn't really matter what the intentions were when the outcome was hurtful to someone who has struggled with that perception her entire young adult life, that it perpetuates a certain myth about her that (like her tweet says) was more "acceptable" in 2010 than it is in 2021. Like if they had thought about the line for more than a second when they were writing it, they would have included a line where Georgia references Taylor's much less "exciting" dating history the past 5 or so years in response, or have the characters come to realize that maybe "caring" so much about who adult women sleep with is the kind of paternalistic shit we need to expel from a modern society. The criticisms of it definitely could have easily been avoided by better writing, though I do think the end goal of the show is well-intended as well; for a character like Ginny who is so steeped in anxiety and worry about "fitting in" and what other people think of her to become her own person eventually. To be able to recognize such internalized misogyny and not live in shame and worry about things men receive no criticisms whatsoever for.
Ironically that's ultimately what I think both Taylor and the show aimed for, but with very mixed results. It's great that Taylor is using her voice about things that specifically bother her, hopefully inspiring and emboldening younger fans to not put up with the sexism they might encounter in their own lives. I can only imagine what a 16 year old would feel seeing their idol stand up for themselves like this.
I'm also concerned like others have said, about the implications of someone as powerful as Taylor mobilizing their fanbase to attack anyone involved in a throwaway line with zero context of the actual content of the scene. It reminds me of when the new Saved By The Bell reboot had a plot line where the teens were increasingly losing it over having their phones confiscated and "not knowing who donated their kidney to Selena". Like the mere mention of Selena's kidney was enough to make the stans go ballistic and made Peacock issue an apology statement and scrub the episode for any mention of it. It's good that we are becoming more critical of pop culture and start having a larger on-going discussion about what should and should not be accepted as "jokes" in a more equal society, especially in light of some of the truly horrific horseshit talkshow hosts like Jimmy Kimmel and David Letterman were peddling on the regular a decade ago. What's simultaneously concerning is the idea that celebrities should dictate whatever content is made about them, as if a mere mention of someone in a negative context is enough to get a show re-edited. Or that we should validate stans harassing people whether it's for writing an 8.0 review on Pitchfork or for speaking a line of dialogue they most likely didn't write on a TV show.
That's not to say Taylor isn't in her right to criticize what she felt annoyed by, or that there shouldn't be a discussion about it, because I think there is value in that discussion. I just wish there was more room for nuance in how it is actually being discussed; how the framing and tone of something might entirely change its meaning, how something might be well-intentioned and still be problematic.
I haven’t watched the show but I saw a lot of people online make the point about the context yesterday, but to me that doesn’t really change anything? It’s supposed to be a hurtful insult, but it only works that way based on the assumption that everyone knows that “Taylor’s gone through so many men you should be embarrassed to be outdoing her” or however you want to put it. It’s still making Taylor the butt of the joke, even if there’s no joke being told. And maybe the audience is supposed to recognize that it’s wrong, but when there’s plenty of different ways to say the same thing without involving Taylor (or any other female celebrity) it does seem like the writers put it in there intentionally to make that joke.
I don’t know if that even makes sense but I’ve been thinking about it sense I saw people providing context for the scene and this is where I’ve landed.
I don’t know if that even makes sense but I’ve been thinking about it sense I saw people providing context for the scene and this is where I’ve landed.
Exactly this. It doesn't really matter that they weren't trying to make a joke of it, they still used Taylor's highly criticized and mocked dating life as a teardown of another female character. There's still a negative connotation and intention there. That doesn't change because that's not how they meant it. Especially when the context is literally just "this character was trying to hurt that character". It makes it even more unnecessary, I think, that they used it as a throwaway line when they could've had the same effect by not mentioning Taylor's name at all. It's not a thought provoking scene that's trying to dissect these labels, and even if it was, if the subject is not ok with it, then it's not ok.
Not trying to drag or come for anyone or anything, I'm just really tired of being told that conversations like these have to be nuanced, or to look at it from the other side. I'm typically all about seeing the bigger picture and understanding the framing of issues, but I just don't think it applies here. They specifically used her because she had (and still has to alot of people, unfortunately) a reputation for being a slutty serial dater. A reputation that was forced on her by other people. If the writers want to come out and say they fucked up and they're sorry, then great! Because they did fuck up and they should be sorry. Did the expect that she wouldn't say anything because she didn't used to in the past? Did they think that people just wouldn't care?
Taylor's also one of the biggest celebrities in the world with an even bigger fanbase, so people were going to attack whether she said anything or not. Obviously the outrage will be stronger now that she's spoken out, but it's not fair to expect her to filter how she feels about it. She shouldn't have to be nuanced about it just because it would spare the people who wrote the line in the first place.
It's less about nuance and more about how two seemingly opposing ideals can... exist at the same time, where Taylor is 100% correct and 100% entitled to call out the joke for exactly what it is (cheap, misogynistic, weirdly dated considering she's been in a stable, quiet relationship for about five years) but is also kinda incorrect in her thought process. Like, Netflix is... a huge corporation. The people who worked on her documentary and the people who work on... whatever the fuck this show is, most likely don't even work in the same city, let alone the same department.
@ing the corporation as a whole just feels like a weirdly broad and futile exercise for someone who is normally incredibly pointed in who she goes after. Casting up Miss Americana is an even weirder stance. Like, was all of Netflix's content morally pure and 100% gender equal before this fuck up? Because I guarantee she signed the dotted line with them without making sure their entire content was in line with her views. Her most recent streaming special was on Disney+ and I can maybe think of five gags in The Simpsons alone that are offensive. Does she want to want to start holding the Walt Disney Corporation to task "after the long pond sessions"? Hasn't Target - her longtime deluxe edition distribution pal - been owned by Republican-funding homophobes for decades? Do none of these other services she's been pushing content from recently also sell material that might contain offensive content that doesn't line up with her world views? Are you telling me there's not a single DVD, book, whatever on a Target shelf that doesn't contain a shitty joke directly at her expense?
Again, I stress, both ideals are true at the same time. She should go after this kind of stuff. Her anger and frustration is valid, and... despite her wealth, yes, she is still a human being who reacts in a human manner to things like this. But going after Netflix as a whole is just so general and feels oddly... ineffective? And it's also what leads to stuff like her fans going after actors and the wrong people. At least @ the episode's writer for the mess.
Meh. It's true and she should say it but the whole thing just doesn't feel like the slam dunk it should be.
@ing the corporation as a whole just feels like a weirdly broad and futile exercise for someone who is normally incredibly pointed in who she goes after. Casting up Miss Americana is an even weirder stance. Like, was all of Netflix's content morally pure and 100% gender equal before this fuck up? Because I guarantee she signed the dotted line with them without making sure their entire content was in line with her views. Her most recent streaming special was on Disney+ and I can maybe think of five gags in The Simpsons alone that are offensive. Does she want to want to start holding the Walt Disney Corporation to task "after the long pond sessions"? Hasn't Target - her longtime deluxe edition distribution pal - been owned by Republican-funding homophobes for decades? Do none of these other services she's been pushing content from recently also sell material that might contain offensive content that doesn't line up with her world views? Are you telling me there's not a single DVD, book, whatever on a Target shelf that doesn't contain a shitty joke directly at her expense?
Again, I stress, both ideals are true at the same time. She should go after this kind of stuff. Her anger and frustration is valid, and... despite her wealth, yes, she is still a human being who reacts in a human manner to things like this. But going after Netflix as a whole is just so general and feels oddly... ineffective? And it's also what leads to stuff like her fans going after actors and the wrong people. At least @ the episode's writer for the mess.
Meh. It's true and she should say it but the whole thing just doesn't feel like the slam dunk it should be.
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The way Todrick manages to find new ways to make me hate him even when we're on the same side. At least he had the decency to delete it, presumably after Taylor called him like
