The Sugababes Discography Rate

Lets do it
Heeeeeeeeere we go!!!


I dooooooo booooy, such a foooooool

It's all good for MAAAAYYYYYYYYuh


I'm gonna do this, for MEEEeeeEEEeeeEEEeeeyuh



Score: 9.574
11 x 7: @mrdonut, @RJF, @NecessaryVoodoo, @Robert, @Methyn Marquis, @Reboot, @JuanJose
Highest: 10/10 x 52 (@GhettoPrincess, @kal, @etienne, @Solenciennes, @tylerc904, @Voodoo, @Sprockrooster, @AlexD, @PCDPG, @Deborux, @lalaclairi_, @theincredibleflipper, @Island, @DJHazey, @SmashHitter, @DoggySwami, @JamesJupiter, @CorgiCorgiCorgi, @Lost In Japan., @stopthestatic, @Shockbox, @londonrain, @supersoon, @Robsolete, @High Heel Feminist, @Robinho#1, @2014, @AllSixSugababes, @LE0Night, @berserkboi, @scottdisick94, @Remorque, @LPMA, @Mushroom, @Epic Chocolat, @Mr.Arroz, @chanex, @Zar-Unity, @Mikl C, @Black Topanga, @Uno, @xondus, @Jam, @cryctall, @Consideration, @acl, @Blayke, @Number, @BeingBoring, @PLUTO, @roux)
Lowest: 6/10 x 1 (@Mina, @constantino)
My score: 10/10

By their second album, and with their first proper attempt at it, the Sugababes clocked the classic ballad and the empowerment anthem. “Stronger” is an emphatic, superlative knockout, a fact equally obscured by its forcefully restrained nature. Yet the impact and influence the song has had on the band’s music, its members and its fans is hugely lasting. The song’s placement, at the very upper echelons of the rate, is but one reminder of what a significant song this is.

“Stronger” created the template for the classic Sugaballad, from the production to the vocals to the arrangements. A large array of them to come, stretching all the way to the band’s sixth album, would bear the hallmarks of its influence. Smooth, classical yet contemporary production; confident, choicely distributed vocal duties where each member is essential individually and together; and perfectly and singularly pitched content, engineered to strike nuanced, stirring and lasting emotional chords.

The production is restrained R&B/pop polished with – inspiredly at the time (and still so to most extents) – distinct trip hop influences. This is down to personnel like frequent Massive Attack collaborator Marius de Vries being among the song’s writers. It comes across in myriad ways: in the effects used in the instrumental; the muted beeps, the deep baritone bass, light metal-on-metal clasps, the deliberately slowed down beat, the vocodered vocal repeats, and the pairing with classical elements – most particularly the strings used as backing. It’s judged so, so well, never coming off as forced or inorganic, but as part of the song’s whole: just as an instance of the immaculate crafting, notice how the the strings swell then drop off after the chorus to a short bleeping sequence only to swell again with Keisha’s vocals on the verse. And it builds and builds ever so slowly, a gust that becomes a hurricane with you in the middle, barely realising the change. It traverses a frighteningly narrow line between classical (as a hallmark of power ballads) and contemporary for the time (transferring the UK-led trip hop explosion from the mid-90s onwards to pop) production. In threading this fine needle, and getting it absolutely perfect, it achieves this sense of being timeless. More than any other song on Angels With Dirty Faces, and indeed, than so many of their songs, this is implaceable – being believable as a fresh piece of music anywhere from 1995 to today.

Vocally, it sets up the 2.0 ballad formula of Mutya leading the first verse, Keisha following on the second, Heidi on the middle eight, an amped up final chorus with Keishalibs exploding and harmonies engulfing the whole thing. As the first instance of this, though, it’s revelatory. In a song about the self, each vocalist seems to sing into a vacuum, perfectly highlighting their vocal strengths and providing added lustre to the song’s message. Mutya is beautifully crisp – particularly in the repeated fadeouts; Keisha quietly warm – until she pulverises the song with a series of explosive adlibs, the first of what would be many such bravura instances; and Heidi takes the reins noticeably – turning in what would be the first of many assured middle eights. And yes that includes that high note – the dolphin mating call/the refrigerator sensor malfunction/the sentient record skip (© fancygreen) – which has never been a problem on record. The first-ice-of-the-winter quality of her voice is especially prominent in her first outing for the band, but it comes off as so hesitantly evocative in the darkened plunge the song takes sonically for the middle eight. And together, the three summon that ruthlessly efficient spark which keeps the whole machine turning; sounding unusually concordant on the chorus (to the point of making who the lead vocalist is unclear); trading lines sharply on the bridges; and coating the song in harmonies so lush they coalesce with the strings. If that wasn’t enough of a showcase, there is the outro which turns their harmonies into an insistent and utterly gorgeous refrain which rolls in, snowstorm-like, to take over from Keisha’s “yeah yeah yeah”s. It’s that kinda showpiece where each member clocks in such a poised performance that it’s difficult to pick a standout, which would become almost a default feature of their ballads over the years.

Rounding up the Sugaballad formula is the song’s content. If the production and the vocals weren’t enough, “Stronger” is an unbettered landmark because it focalises the empowerment anthem into very specific, and very uncharted, space. Such anthems often hinge on deriving empowerment from self-worth, be it intrinsic internal values; uniqueness of personality; acceptance or dismissal of perceived physical or character flaws; or the overcoming of adversity. In each of these cases, the self is tied to some sort of personal feature, virtue or action as the basis for emancipation. “Stronger” does away with that and isolates empowerment solely to the self, and the simple idea of being… alone. As the song puts it, “I’m all alone, and finally, I’m getting stronger”. In a culture that valorises companionship, particularly romantic attachment, and validation from others, and instils dread at the idea of being alone, this is a rather remarkable message. To say that strength can be gained simply from being free of attachments, and that further seclusion will only make you stronger yet, that it’s possible to be strong alone, is such a message to impart. It is especially so for young women for whom the self is such a contested and socially treacherous battleground. Oh, and lest it be forgotten, they were still in their teens, and just such young women, when they wrote this.

“Stronger” was released as a double A-side single along with “Angels With Dirty Faces” as the third release from Angels, and charted at #7 in the UK, and within the Top 10 in several European territories. It received a rather discussion worthy video, notable equally for where it stumbles as much as where it succeeds. There’s an attempt at some narrative bits, with Mutya playing the girlfriend of an inattentive boyfriend who plucks up the courage to leave him; Keisha participating in a “Heartbroken Anonymous” support group offering solace to her fellow participants (with that hug, which gave me frostbite!); and Heidi playing a stripper who decides to reclothe herself and leave the venue. Of these, Mutya’s one is fairly inoffensive, Keisha’s is somewhat hokey, but Heidi’s is a little shaky on account of the potential sex worker-shaming. It’s somewhat understandable given the mores of the time, and especially the social constraints girlbands were put under to present themselves as, in attempting to be “role models” for young girls. Nevertheless, the storyline rather undercuts the overall message of “Stronger”, and comes off as unusually moralistic for the band; few of the band’s other videos delve into such contradictorily preachy territory, especially within the fantastic Angels video suite. It’s also unnecessarily distracting given Heidi’s strong attachment to the song; you really wish that they had gone with a different story for her. A more charitable reading would see her character as assuming agency in her life, and that her decision shouldn’t be judged either way, but it is a tad more nuanced message to impart within 30 seconds of a four minute music video.

The video fares far better on the other scenes, which really should have been the basis for the entire video. They are set at a community poolside, alternating between shots of the girls individually and together, some charming bits of the Sugababes imagined as little girls playing in the pool, and shots of random girls dancing together. And like the song itself, how the three girls looked – Mutya in a white off-shoulder Adidas tracksuit, Keisha in her pink and orange floral dress and Heidi in jeans and a green top – have been ever-present spectres in my recollections of the band for well over a decade; ordinary and casual yet quietly striking and just cool. The effect of all these scenes is a disarming sense of ease and loveliness. For me, it’s so very movingly evocative, bringing back memories of hanging out by the pool in summer with classmates and friends and directly playing into those memories given that the video was released at a time simultaneous with those experiences in my life. The video captures with efficiency that sense of casual, relaxed belonging you can have with a collection of friends and a community, regardless of how deep your personal attachments may be to any one of those people. The idea that quiet moments of getting along with even random acquaintances builds up to a sense of community. It’s especially poignant with the boys heckling the Babes towards the end, which you wonder would be a plot point in the video, only for it turn out to be just playful jibbing. The scenes with all the assorted people in the video arrayed on the poolside benches at the end is all the more powerful because of this.

Because of all of this – the song’s immaculate construction, its iridescent meaning, its video – or because of some alchemy innate to it, “Stronger” has always seemed special. Beyond the importance of the song to the band’s music, it has also held particular significance for its members. It is Heidi’s admitted favourite song from the band, having evidently written her parts about her time prior to joining the Sugababes and the uncertainty she faced in trying to make it in the music industry. Heidi gets a rather bad rap a lot of the time, particularly for her alleged role in Keishagate, but it’s important to remember that the agency of a person, and especially of a young woman, in the music industry is never as much as is assumed. That is as true during Keishagate as it was all the way back during her time in limbo between leaving Atomic Kitten and getting drafted into the Sugababes, under circumstances as challenging as could be imagined (a freshly dropped girlband, with an entirely different musical aesthetic to before, with two members who you don’t know, and moreover, knew each other from very young). The diligence, sincerity and perseverance with which Heidi assumed her life as a Sugababe tends to get overshadowed by the more forceful and tabloid-fodder friendly personas of Keisha and Mutya as well as the perceived internal ructions of the band. Yet, Heidi slotted into the band almost seamlessly and helped usher in in its golden age from the get go. As easy as it might be to attribute all of that to the material or to the band’s internal dynamic, dismissing her role in all of it is unconscionable. She was the ever-smiling (not the type of girl to let them see her cry), diligent, positive aura who just got on with it and probably held the band together in more ways, and for such a long time, than we could ever know. She did then embody in every way the entire ethos of “Stronger” of doing it alone, herself. Her middle eight is as potent riposte as can be imagined to her detractors, before, during and after her time in the band.

For a lot of similar reasons, the song also holds special resonance for Siobhán, as everyone discovered when she, somewhat unexpectedly, took over Heidi’s part during a performance of the song at MKS’ first gig at Scala. The way the venue erupted was rapturous, even from observing the footage. To those there, it must have been beyond special. As Peter himself put it, he couldn’t remember the last time he heard a live audience react like that. For Siobhán to spend more than a decade in the wilderness, watching the band she started explode with success then slowly disintegrate, all the while trying to make it herself in the same industry (with little success), tracks in many ways the song’s thematic narrative. It is much of that meaning that imbued and sealed the moment during that middle eight – where she did a beautiful variation of Heidi’s take – and made it, and the song, seem like the gorgeous, important, and yes, special triumph it was.

And that is really the story of “Stronger”. In the song’s beautiful universalism, eschewing any distracting specificity but equally not being a collection of platitudes, it echoes over and over across time. For the band’s members for sure, and just as well for its fans, receiving the same ecstatic response each time it has been performed over many years. In this rate itself, there was never any question it would place very high; it simply started in the Top 5 and never left. “Stronger” embodies the sort of quiet perfection that becomes a spectre over your appreciation of the band across time and ultimately over your own life. Like the song itself, its power rolls quietly, imperceptibly, over time, but once it has built itself, it is unshakable – a beautiful, true permanence. Because this really is every single time of heading into room after room, day in and out, filled with people who don’t look, think or see the world like you, and that first inhale of breath you take before you speak. It is every single time of hauling your life in two suitcases across a dozen airports and not quite knowing what’s coming next. And it’s every single time of heading out under overcast skies, the rain spluttering on your face, the chill settling around your frame – when you are distinctly aware that all you have is yourself. And that’s it. That has to be it. And you keep walking and walking.

The paragraph of hate is like in RollerCoaster Tycoon when you build an incomplete rollercoaster and have it end on a footpath, then test drive it and watch the rollercoaster smash into into the unspecting people walking about and see them flying off, which is to say, a damn disaster. If you’re born with no taste, it’s very hard to develop it, so proves Mina (6) who rudely belches “One of my least favourite Sugaballads.” You go girl, I guess. And Constantino (6) comes through with a shocking bit of hearing impaired blasphemy, “Well…this is a bit of a buzzkill isn’t it? I feel like we were robbed of a proper pay-off after what felt like 4 minutes of build-up.” So I guess the Keishalibs and the outro did nothing for you? Poor it.

Let’s ascend to more tasteful terrain. “It literally took a decade for this song to click with me” confesses ssa (9) making me glad I didn’t run this rate in 2012 (though if I did, we could’ve wrapped it by last year hehe). londonrain (10) is also fond of growers, “When I first heard this song I thought it was a bit dull - but it really grew on me (and it's now one of my favourites, helped by the fact that MKS sound fantastic on it live). The arrangement is brilliant, and there's this lovely Massive Attack vibe to it that really works. The Keisha ad libs are great, and I love the Heidi/Mutya "uh uh uh" section at the end, which builds beautifully. Siobhan brought the house down with the middle eight on the Sacred Three Tour, and frankly I think she does it better live than Heidi does. (I'm still recovering from the "meeee-eeee-eeee-eeee-eeee-eeee" incident.)” I think it’s all of them? Remorque (10) also brings up The Attack, alongside being still pressed about Sugahate from over a decade ago, bless, “I remember hearing a review for the very first time before I actually had the album… People were calling it “boring”… Boy, was I surprised. This is like their Massive Attack song. Those strings, paired with those beats and the girls’ clear voices are definitely highlights here. They give us such a cold performance, but it actually never fails to warm my heart… That outro, however short it may be, is fucking brilliant too.”

berserkboi (10) is the latest voter to confess that their partner has better taste than them, “This rate and this being my partner’s favourite Suga track has made me realise just how stunning “Stronger” really is. Not only is it one of the most timeless sounding of their records but the way it builds more and more truly shows it should be sweeping about half the 11s on here. Heidi’s moment just changes things completely and it goes somewhere completely different to what is started in Mutya’s and Keisha’s bits - making it all the more unique and rewarding. The film clip with Heidi putting her clothes back on was also such a strong visual motif for the band, making the crime of Sweet 7 seem even worse when looking back at the message of their discography...” Hmmmt, the message of their discography is one of empowerment rather than eschewing being sexual; the problem with Sweet 7 was that it revelled in sexualisation without that empowerment or any individual identity. This is why the politics of the Heidi parts of the “Stronger” video don’t sit too neatly with the message of the song per se.

Filler (8) tunes into some of that dissonance, “I’m sorry but I’m not satisfied that recoiling in horror at Heidi stripping should really be all that inspiring and uplifting for her. It’s quite rude actually. Anyway good song.” And P’NutButter (9.5) has a less sophisticated take, unnecessarily taking the video into account in the scoring, “Everything is perfect, except Heidi’s Lion in a bikini costume in the video.” uno (10) admirably and wisely resists the urge, “I really wanted to take away points for the part of the video that Heidi plays a stripper... I get what they were trying to do, but I cringe so hard at it. As much as I wanted to -- the song is just too damn good to not give it a 10.” tylerc904 (10) meanwhile takes the reverse lane, “Heidi’s iconic middle eight and stripper hair in the video are the highlights on this for me.” acl (10) makes a different kind of peace with Heidi’s performance, “I will never grow tired of this song, to this day it still gives me life. Stirring and atmospheric, with some of Keisha’s best off key spooky moments. Heidi’s middle eight stripper in the video still makes me scream mess.”

kal (10) takes us back to when he was but a wee lil Bulgarian hunty, “I vividly remember being 12 and bopping to this whenever it came on MTV. I still didn’t know who Sugababes were at the time and didn’t care. The atmospheric instrumental on “Stronger” is so haunting, I could never give it any lesser score than a 10. Yet another timeless classic that does not sound even a bit dated 14 years later. “Stronger” is probably in my top 10 Sugababes songs.” “Iconic” screams Voodoo (10), meanwhile PCDPG (10) brands it “One of their best ballads. Which captured their style at the time perfectly.” roux (10) picks up on how effortless this was in selling the message, “A genuinely inspirational anthem that, compared to what we see these days, never needed gimmicks and PR and more nonsense so they could force their positive message shoved down our throats. The song itself has that same haunting quality as “Run For Cover” too, something I personally love.” Robinho#1 (10) telegraphs the Sugajourney with 2.0, “Incredible moment for the second line up. After raking in the #1s they decided to return to their roots.”

Ironheade (9) deems it “The archetypal Sugaballad, meaning it rules. You can’t really go wrong with a classy string arrangement wrapped around a cool chilled-out trip-hop beat, can you? Mutya, naturally, steals the show here, ridding herself of the slightly oppressive flatness that she struggled with on One Touch, finding a new emotional depth and richness in her voice that would make her such an asset to the group in the coming years. Keisha adds solid support on the chorus, and I just love the harmonizing on the rise towards the second chorus. Extra point for The Heidi Middle eight. Her vibrato sounds a wee bit unnatural, but the emotiveness and honesty that is her greatest strength as a singer makes meEeEeeeEEeEEeeEeEEeEE so happy.” “Mutya’s verse is glorious,” coos Deborux (10). Runawaywithme (9) needs to pack extra hay fever medication for their seasonal transportments, “This song always reminds me of nice sunny but cold autumn/early spring days. I just has a vibe that makes me feel all warm and nostalgic. The calming nature and dreaminess blends so well with their vocies, also Heidi’s middle eight is just heaven and it reminds of those cold frosty days when I would run around town in a coat without a care in the world and I get chills when it comes on, I just get caught in the moment (sorry).” Sound the Bond theme klaxon! for Epic Chocolat (10) who likes “the theme of the lyrics, the feel of an end credits song of a Bond movie with those sweeping strings.”

Sprockrooster (10) stans for Heidi, “Heidi steals this show literally. Apparently this was only a big hit in the Netherlands and I do not know why it was not elsewhere.” But CasuallyCrazed (9.5) tries to shade her, “The original soaring, cinematic sugaballad. Heidi delivers a stunning vocal for once.” They should join Blayke (10) at the haterade stand, “This is also one of Sugababes’ defining singles for me. It was a beautiful yet inspired way to showcase strength from vulnerability. In Heidi’s case, singing her parts live on this song goes from weakness to abomination. She sounds amazing on the record and has sounded great in their piano-led-acoustic performance of this song. I also love how Siobhán stanned for this song back in the day. I wonder if she had written parts of it during her time as a Sugababe.” Solenciennes (10) also doesn’t miss a cue to stan MKS, “this was always one of my all-time favourites and hearing the new lease of life Siobhán breathed into it with her take on Heidi’s parts pushed it even further up my list of favourites. A wonderful self-help anthem and the music video gave us that shark-eyed hug from Keisha that will never not be hilarious. Keisha’s part about trials and tribulations is especially wonderful, but Heidi gets the best bit (though Siobhán did it better, I pray to all the pop Gods that they release a studio version cover with her iconic take, I can’t get enough of listening to fan videos).” But yes, the Siobhán moment really is a moment.

Speaking of Shiv, enter Black Topanga (10), “Ah, “Run for Cover”’s lively, but equally angst-ridden cousin. Stronger was one of the few remnants to the girls’ humble beginnings in R&B-lite melancholy fields. While it lacked the dramatic composition of Donaghy’s pen game, “Stronger” demonstrated that 2.0 had no problem revisiting introspective territory. Today, the song can be found as a delicacy lodged in their back catalogue. Honestly, who can resist that experimental, trip hop-ish strut?”

I knew this was DJHazey’s (10) alternate 11 pick, and he explains it was “Very close to being my 11 as it was one of the first songs I fell in love with. Mutya fucking owns this in every way possible. Her prechorus is a career highlight. The sweeping melodies always knock me off my feet no matter how much I prepare. The words combined with the sound literally take you into their arms and tell you it’s going to okay.” And alright, too! Chanex (10) also lets us into their 11 considerations, “a contender for my 11 for sure, it’s such a personal mantra. "No more stillness, more sunlight. Everything’s gonna be alright" has been my PJ signature forever for a reason.” ohnostalgia (10) makes me quiver with her crisp poésie, “This is so cool and serene, the perfect soundtrack for facing your fears and coming out the other side whole.” mmh.

Lil’ Island (10) chimes in with a lovely personal account of his relationship with the song, “‘Stronger’ was love at first listen to me but I never really related to it until I went away for college. I was all alone (and suddenly...) and knew nobody around me so I kind of had to get the feel of the people around me through the events I had to attend and the classes I was in. I wasn't really missing home because I could block that away pretty easily but I kind of still alone in a new place where I didn't know anyone and wasn't feeling any sort of attachment/connection with anyone yet. Going to college, I knew that there was gonna be change (hyuk hyuk) so y'know... you make the best of the new experience and meet new people. Anyways, I always relate to Heidi's middle eight (one time I got caught by campo singing the Rock in Rio edition at night) because it was so reflective of my experience going into college and those first few weeks and many other times where I feel lonely (people around me, they didn't care etc). But, I just go through the days and indeed I'm gonna do this for meeeeeeEEEEeeeEEEeeeEEEEEee. Keisha's ad libs and the harmonies at the end are chill inducing. This is how you do a proper modern day ballad.”

“Stronger” breaks the 11 record once again, and at seven we’ve reached the point where tags won’t work for all 11-awarders. We have four voters chipping in. First, the wonderful mrdonut very succinctly breaks down his deliberations, “The impressive vocals, the song’s moving ethos and the sweeping Massive Attack-style melodies are all to be highly cherished. And as a whole, this is just staggeringly moving in every way. Choosing an 11 in this rate proved to be almost impossible; such is the quality of songs from “Overload” all the way to “Flatline”. However, in the end I went with “Stronger” because when all is said and done, it is undeniably one of the finest pop ballads of the last 20 years.” Let them know.

Robert chimes in about the song as part of his extended thoughts on Angels and dissolves me a little bit, “This is the first album I have heard in full. I have played individual songs a lot and here goes my most influential song (maybe ever) – “Stronger”. I loved it when I was a young gay male struggling with his orientation and makes me always think about the times I was afraid and how my life has turned around from constant fear to constant love. I still like to be reminded of this everyday.” Just lovely.

The absolutely magisterial NecessaryVoodoo, who hosted the very first rate I ever participated in on this forum (this gem right here) and who made sure it wouldn’t be the last and compelled me to have a go hosting myself (for better or for worse ddd), graces my rate with these lovely words: “My 11 for this rate was always a coin toss between “Stronger” and “Run For Cover”. I always felt the 'babes were better than most at ballads, replacing what is frequently overwrought and saccharine in the oeuvre with strength and a steely determination.

In the end though I went with “Stronger” as I feel it's a great showcase for all three of 2.0. Yes even Miss Range and that middle-8. Plus I'm such a sucker for emotional strings in pop and the nice subtle build of the strings which give me “Unfinished Sympathy” teas throughout the song really parallel the theme in the lyrics of being knocked down and eventually picking yourself back up again to overcome whatever. Just brilliantly executed. A triumph.” Indeed.

Finally, swimming into my rate all the way from the island of Gullah Gullah is Binyah Binyah RJF, who despite cooling on the band as his fave, still seems to carry an itsy bitsy stan torch. Moreover, he has the damn nerve to leave me scalped, bleeding and shivering on the shower floor. “I don't know if I have words for the other songs sis, but this one... I will always be able to talk about. Let's talk about "Stronger" in the context of 2017, as we have collectively started to scratch the surface about the inequality of woman and minority woman in particular. "Stronger" is not self-pitying; it starts out immediately by telling us that this is a strength that will last, "I'll make it through the rainy days, I'll be the one who stands there longer than the rest." This isn't a song about finding your strength in others, or overcoming rudimentary obstacles in front of you. It's not even really about loving yourself. It's about finding that scrappy, snarling beast within yourself that won't give up under any circumstances. It doesn't offer a utopia at the end of this therapy where everything is fine. Life is a battle every single day, and sometimes being yourself in that life is several battles every day and finding the strength to fight them. It brings me back to a line from my current fave, "No matter if the world turns its back on you... you always have yourself." There is power in solitude and isolation; power in loneliness and despair. "Stronger" wills you to dig deep and find that. You're not always going to have the perfect circumstance or people around you to facilitate strength; it has to come from you. For that statement to come from young woman, two thirds of which being women of colour? Mmm, stab me. That lasting legacy and wisdom and true dichotomy of the Sugababes – young women with knowledge beyond their years – lies in this song, making it their lasting impact for me before anything else.” And there.​

The extended gospel-y final chorus here is kinda everything:

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Deleted member 3416

Noooo! I love Stronger. My commentary for it:

Absolutely adore Mutya’s vocals on this song. Always thought the production was amazing on this single and I love the chorus.
  • There are only ten scores under 7 across all five songs. The lowest score remaining, and the only sub-5 score, is a 3. The next lowest score is a 6.
With 2 6's gone and possibly a 6,5 we have a maximum of 8 scores left that are below a 7. I just hope that 3 didnot get any 6 or 6,5 so it's effect is minimized.